Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-04-2017, 08:38 AM   #21
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As James Burke described it the process was well within the TL2 Rome had: Design a reusable mold (bronze statues), carve the letter in a soft copper bar (around since the Greeks), and pour molten lead in the mold (Romans used lead for the pipes). Nothing in that list was beyond the ability of the TL2 Romans.
Romans are a poor example for TL2. They're very much pushing TL 3. Look instead at ancient Persia or Babylon, the Germanic tribes the Romans found, and pre-alexandrian Greece. Romans are TL2 in the same way World War II is TL6.

But yes, TL3 is probably sufficient for moveable type.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 08:44 AM   #22
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Romans are a poor example for TL2. They're very much pushing TL 3. Look instead at ancient Persia or Babylon, the Germanic tribes the Romans found, and pre-alexandrian Greece. Romans are TL2 in the same way World War II is TL6.
Yeah, at a certain point, you have to stop arguing that a civilisation is advanced in x, y, z and maybe several other areas and acknowledge that maybe it is better described with a higher base TL.

Showing an earlier culture at TL3 when some later cultures were still TL2 would also be a good first step in getting rid of that pesky assumption of history as an inevitable progression to our inimitable selves, which often seems hard-coded into many people's view of the world.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 11:20 AM   #23
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Several things here

The first known Encyclopedia was Natural History and dates from c77 CE. It consisted of 37 chapters spread over 10 books.
Yes, but Pliny is almost useless at learning any practical craft. Its a book of "cool facts about nature from my library." Diderot's Encyclopédie is a very different project, designed to preserve and spread the knowledge of Enlightenment France, including things which had previously never been written. It is one branch of a project which started to take shape in the 17th and 18th centuries which includes things like patent law, professional journals, agricultural fairs, etc. and argued that the kind of knowledge which experts had traditionally hoarded should be open to all in order to further progress.

One cool thing is that this project is still ongoing! It has won many battles over the past 300 years, but there are still trade secrets and very expensive books and datasets and long copyright terms. Arguments about "security through obscurity" and how to distribute academic research are just the latest skirmishes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Latin had been standardized 75 BCE and when the Western Roman empire fell apart it became the defacto international language of what had been the Western Roman empire.

Because the Muslim world, India, and China didn't have this common language cultural exchange between their cultures and the old Western Roman Empire was limited.
Things were translated when enough people wanted them to be (and most technical texts had been in Greek anyways) but writing had a very small role in the spread of technology even inside one language region. As I said, no early printed book describing how to make armour has left any trace on the present, but there is lots of evidence for a town which wanted to develop its armour industry luring journeymen and masters from a town with a strong industry.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature

Last edited by Polydamas; 01-04-2017 at 11:44 AM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 01:54 PM   #24
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Sean's right: the printing press had almost nothing at all to do with the spread of technology between cultures.

Anthony's right: the Romans could not have developed a Gutenberg-style printing press (movable type made from lead won't work). The best they could have done is wood-block printing.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.

Last edited by DanHoward; 01-04-2017 at 02:01 PM.
DanHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 02:32 PM   #25
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Were the Romans incapable of reproducing the lead-tin-antinomy alloy used to make Gutenberg's type? They clearly had access to all three metals in some form, but apparently not metallic antimony. But Gutenberg didn't have access to metallic antimony, either, so I'm not sure why that's a limitation.

Gutenberg also had to re-engineer the hand press to apply pressure more consistently across the entire press. I'm not sure if that modification was beyond Roman engineering or just something they hadn't need to do because it's an unnecessary frill when you're pressing olives.
__________________
Read my GURPS blog: http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com
mlangsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 02:36 PM   #26
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

I thought that another often overlooked necessity to the printing press was the invention of the right inks.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 03:08 PM   #27
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Were the Romans incapable of reproducing the lead-tin-antinomy alloy used to make Gutenberg's type? They clearly had access to all three metals in some form, but apparently not metallic antimony. But Gutenberg didn't have access to metallic antimony, either, so I'm not sure why that's a limitation.

Gutenberg also had to re-engineer the hand press to apply pressure more consistently across the entire press. I'm not sure if that modification was beyond Roman engineering or just something they hadn't need to do because it's an unnecessary frill when you're pressing olives.
If Gutenberg travelled back in time, retaining all of his knowledge, he probably could have developed his printing press using Roman technology. The Romans could not make the same advance for a whole host of technological and sociological reasons including the lack of precursor skills and technologies and the availability of cheap slave labour.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.

Last edited by DanHoward; 01-04-2017 at 03:12 PM.
DanHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 05:23 PM   #28
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
James Burke is a journalist, not an engineer. Pure-ish lead is a bad type metal: it shrinks too fast as it cools to take a sharp impression, and wears and spreads too fast in use. Guttenberg developed a lead-tin-antimony alloy, after a lot of effort. I'd question the Romans' ability to develop that technology without knowing it was possible in advance.
Good point. They could use wood type as the Chinese did. Wouldn't be as durable as metal type but it would be better then pure lead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
If Gutenberg travelled back in time, retaining all of his knowledge, he probably could have developed his printing press using Roman technology. The Romans could not make the same advance for a whole host of technological and sociological reasons including the lack of precursor skills and technologies and the availability of cheap slave labour.
Lest Darkness Falls is a novel about a 20th century man being sent back to 535 CE and he redevelops the printing press with very basic knowledge on how it worked.

Technologically the Roman could have developed the printing press. The precursor skills were there but the incentive to put them together wasn't

Slaves that were able to read and write were rare though exactly how much of the Roman population free and slave was literate is debated (I have seen it as low as 5% and as high as 30%). Also Mechanization (of a sort) existing in Roman times with water power being the go to. Thanks to the cam water power could pound objects faster and harder then any human being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Were the Romans incapable of reproducing the lead-tin-antinomy alloy used to make Gutenberg's type? They clearly had access to all three metals in some form, but apparently not metallic antimony. But Gutenberg didn't have access to metallic antimony, either, so I'm not sure why that's a limitation.

Gutenberg also had to re-engineer the hand press to apply pressure more consistently across the entire press. I'm not sure if that modification was beyond Roman engineering or just something they hadn't need to do because it's an unnecessary frill when you're pressing olives.
Of course we are debating what is possible without magic. With magic (especially common magic) the TL goes pear shaped real fast. Take the lowly Copy spell, anybody literate who knows Dye can learn it.

One of the things medieval monasteries did was copy what survived the Western Roman empire going down the tubes. In fantasy terms we are talking about normal to high sanctuary with many monks having Blessed or even better Power Investiture making the Copy spell a very common spell.

Last edited by maximara; 01-04-2017 at 06:12 PM.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 07:17 PM   #29
dcarson
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Even today one of the reasons that places like Silicon Valley exist is because it is easier to hire skilled workers in a narrow specialty to get the rest of your workers up to speed on it. So you setup shop near others in the field.
dcarson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 03:17 PM   #30
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Lest Darkness Falls is a novel about a 20th century man being sent back to 535 CE and he redevelops the printing press with very basic knowledge on how it worked.
That is a novel, not a historical document. Realistically he couldn't have done this without Gutenberg's rather specialised knowledge and skillset.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.
DanHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
armor, fantasy, low-tech, opinions, worldbuilding

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.