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Old 04-02-2020, 07:53 AM   #31
Icelander
 
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Not quite what you asked about but you might look at the Cobra gunship. It has a significant overlap with the Huey in terms of mechanical systems and I beleive the Marines still use the Sea Cobra variant.

If you found someone talking about how the Sea Cobra was modified for the conditions in question it might shed at least some light.
Thank you, I'll check that.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any idea whether UH-1 Hueys, in Army, Air Force, Coast Guard (perhaps most likely) or Navy (second most likely) service were ever used for maritime operations, SAR at sea, carrier landings, staging from USCG cutters, etc.?
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Thank you, I'll check that.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any idea whether UH-1 Hueys, in Army, Air Force, Coast Guard (perhaps most likely) or Navy (second most likely) service were ever used for maritime operations, SAR at sea, carrier landings, staging from USCG cutters, etc.?
http://www.nhahistoricalsociety.org/...opter-history/

There, with a handy wall poster that shows no Hueys in Coast Guard service.

I know Hueys landed on Navy ships occaisionally but the picture in my memory is from a Huey doing that during the evacuation of the US Embassy in Saigon in 1975. After the last flight out at least one of those Hueys got pushed over the side because that carrier had no place to put it.

The link above is the result of agoogle search for helicopter coast guard history. I bet if you substitute navy for coast guard you can get amatching one.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:25 PM   #33
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Default Re: [High-Tech/Vehicles] Rugged, Simple SAR/Medevac Helicopters

I think one of the problems with Hueys on Navy ships is that they have skids. An aircraft carrier requires constant repositioning of aircraft due to the needs of deck space for flight ops. You'll notice that every dedicated navy helicopter I am aware of has wheels instead of skids. This would not be a problem for a helicopter that only has to land on a single helicopter sized landing pad on a very large yacht or a cargo ship. I'm not sure much would have to be done to make a Huey sea worthy as far as resisting salt spray, they are pretty rugged helicopters. As a player I would not cry foul if this organization used them aboard ships just because Navys that use full sized carriers did not.
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:55 AM   #34
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Default Re: [High-Tech/Vehicles] Rugged, Simple SAR/Medevac Helicopters

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I think one of the problems with Hueys on Navy ships is that they have skids. An aircraft carrier requires constant repositioning of aircraft due to the needs of deck space for flight ops. You'll notice that every dedicated navy helicopter I am aware of has wheels instead of skids. This would not be a problem for a helicopter that only has to land on a single helicopter sized landing pad on a very large yacht or a cargo ship.
That's a very good point.

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I'm not sure much would have to be done to make a Huey sea worthy as far as resisting salt spray, they are pretty rugged helicopters. As a player I would not cry foul if this organization used them aboard ships just because Navys that use full sized carriers did not.
I suppose attempts at accuracy are more for me than my players.

Even if my players don't care one way or another, I want all the little details of real-world stuff to be as accurate as possible, because fantasy is more interesting when contrasted against meticulous realism.

The UH-1 Iraquois 'Huey' helicopters that have been established in play are based on land and used to support operations in Texas, Louisiana and probably occasionally into Mississippi or even Alabama. Louisiana, in particular, sees a lot of small-scale incidents in out of the way places that require the New Orleans team to respond rapidly. So they often travel by light airplane or helicopter.

It has not, so far, come up what kind of helicopters are used for operations over sea. The Penemue doesn't have a helipad and Night Riders (Monster Hunters) who flew in to supplement the complement there while it was in Galveston landed on airfields. Penemue is out to sea now, but the PCs aren't on it.

That being said, when the PCs finish up their investigation of the cult crime spree in the Houston-area, they'll most likely travel to Dominica, where Penemue will be. At that point, it's very likely that the issue of available TL7 helicopters for rendervouzing with a yacht at sea will come up, because the players are terrified of having their characters fly in a modern aircraft. 'Nonc' Morel is planning to fly to Dominica in a WWII seaplane, for example.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
http://www.nhahistoricalsociety.org/...opter-history/

There, with a handy wall poster that shows no Hueys in Coast Guard service.

I know Hueys landed on Navy ships occaisionally but the picture in my memory is from a Huey doing that during the evacuation of the US Embassy in Saigon in 1975. After the last flight out at least one of those Hueys got pushed over the side because that carrier had no place to put it.

The link above is the result of agoogle search for helicopter coast guard history. I bet if you substitute navy for coast guard you can get amatching one.
Interesting, thanks.

Wikipedia says that Hueys were used by every branch of the US military, but I still haven't found a source that explains the USCG use. I suspect that if you search hard enough, you can find evidence that nearly every piece of equipment issued in one branch has at some point been used operationally by a member of another branch, so maybe it's merely a function of USCG LEDET teams having been aboard USN UH-1 helicopters or something.

Or it could be counting the use of Hueys during Operation Snowcap, as the USCG sent teams to assist the DEA and BORTAC with riverine operations and these also conducted helicopter-borne operations.

In any case, what is the rough equivalent to the Huey in terms of technological sophistication, expense and size that is designed for operations from cutters, ships or yachts?
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:55 PM   #36
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Interesting, thanks.

Wikipedia says that Hueys were used by every branch of the US military, but I still haven't found a source that explains the USCG use. I suspect that if you search hard enough, you can find evidence that nearly every piece of equipment issued in one branch has at some point been used operationally by a member of another branch, so maybe it's merely a function of USCG LEDET teams having been aboard USN UH-1 helicopters or something.

Or it could be counting the use of Hueys during Operation Snowcap, as the USCG sent teams to assist the DEA and BORTAC with riverine operations and these also conducted helicopter-borne operations.

In any case, what is the rough equivalent to the Huey in terms of technological sophistication, expense and size that is designed for operations from cutters, ships or yachts?
I like your focus on realism, but I think you are misunderstanding why the Navy and Coast Guard use different helicopters than the Army and Air Force. The difference in Navy/Coast Guard equipment and Army/Air Force is not because the land based services' helicopters are not seaworthy and resistant to salt water, but rather because of other mission specific issues. The salt water problem specifically, as far as I know, really only became an issue with its possible corrosive effects on fragile stealth aircraft skins, and that is definitely not something you are worried about. The reason Navy helicopters are different come down to probably 4 reasons from what I can tell (though I am NOT an expert):

1) Wheels to move around the deck of aircraft carriers and other shipboard hangers without having to air taxi
2) Folding or compact rotor blades for shipboard storage
3) Ocean specific radars, sonars, and weapons for engaging surface and/or submerged ships
4) Preference for more than one engine for over-water redundancy in case of engine failure

For a monster-hunting organization using yachts and other single-helicopter pads, #1-3 are not important. #4 is definitely useful, but the UH-1N Twin Huey started seeing service in 1970, so they could always use those if they are worried about being over water with one engine.

Also, most Navy and Coast Guard specific helicopters that would still be operational today are much heavier than the UH-1 or even the UH-1N (which top out at 9500 lbs and 10500 lbs respectively). You can see a list of US Navy helicopters here to check this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ry_helicopters

The Sea King, for instance, was twice as heavy as the UH-1, and the current SAR helicopters for the Navy and Coast Guard are also pretty much as large as the Sea King. The exception to this that I can tell is the current light helicopter for the coast guard, the MH-65 Dolphin. It is about the same size as the UH-1 and would probably be great, but it is a 1980s design and I think that may be newer than you want. [EDIT: If you are trying to operate from a very large yacht, I think 10000 lbs is probably about the largest you want your helicopter to be. Even then, that may be a stretch.]

Another advantage to using UH-1s from this organization's boats is training and parts commonality, which is a BIG deal for a private organization with (compared to a military) limited personal and logistics. If they are already using them for shore-based operations, it would make sense to also use them from their boats unless there is a reason they would not work.

I really do think you should just have them use their Hueys from boats as well unless you need them to be able to do other Navy or Coast Guard things like tracking and sinking surface ships (and even then, adding a sea track radar pod of some kind would do the trick). But my understanding is you want insertion, extraction, and possibly rescue. I think the UH-1 or possibly the UH-1N would be great for that, even from boats.

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Old 04-04-2020, 06:57 AM   #37
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
I like your focus on realism, but I think you are misunderstanding why the Navy and Coast Guard use different helicopters than the Army and Air Force. The difference in Navy/Coast Guard equipment and Army/Air Force is not because the land based services' helicopters are not seaworthy and resistant to salt water, but rather because of other mission specific issues. The salt water problem specifically, as far as I know, really only became an issue with its possible corrosive effects on fragile stealth aircraft skins, and that is definitely not something you are worried about. The reason Navy helicopters are different come down to probably 4 reasons from what I can tell (though I am NOT an expert):
It's entirely possible.

I'm mostly basing my concern for the effects of salt water on aircraft on the research I did for amphibious aircraft or seaplanes, where the maintenance issues caused by landing in seawater instead of lake water were frequent topics of discussion on forums dedicated to such things. And there exist specific models of amphibious aircraft designed for use at sea.

I realize that helicopters don't actually land in the water, but from my limited experience of rescue operations at sea (exercises only), a helicopter picking up a patient from the deck of a ship or rescuing someone in the water will throw up a lot of water with its rotor wash. So, I thought that salt water might play havoc with maintenance of helicopters as well as seaplanes.

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
1) Wheels to move around the deck of aircraft carriers and other shipboard hangers without having to air taxi
2) Folding or compact rotor blades for shipboard storage
3) Ocean specific radars, sonars, and weapons for engaging surface and/or submerged ships
4) Preference for more than one engine for over-water redundancy in case of engine failure

For a monster-hunting organization using yachts and other single-helicopter pads, #1-3 are not important. #4 is definitely useful, but the UH-1N Twin Huey started seeing service in 1970, so they could always use those if they are worried about being over water with one engine.
Compact-ness matters a lot, because we want to be able to refuel at least the smallest type of helicopter used from ships small enough not to draw too much attention.

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Also, most Navy and Coast Guard specific helicopters that would still be operational today are much heavier than the UH-1 or even the UH-1N (which top out at 9500 lbs and 10500 lbs respectively). You can see a list of US Navy helicopters here to check this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ry_helicopters

The Sea King, for instance, was twice as heavy as the UH-1, and the current SAR helicopters for the Navy and Coast Guard are also pretty much as large as the Sea King. The exception to this that I can tell is the current light helicopter for the coast guard, the MH-65 Dolphin. It is about the same size as the UH-1 and would probably be great, but it is a 1980s design and I think that may be newer than you want. [EDIT: If you are trying to operate from a very large yacht, I think 10000 lbs is probably about the largest you want your helicopter to be. Even then, that may be a stretch.]
These are all excellent points.

Especially when it comes to size and weight. I want helicopters that are TL7, can carry about as many as the Huey, but weight as little as possible, so that the size of the ships required to supporting them is as little as possible.

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Another advantage to using UH-1s from this organization's boats is training and parts commonality, which is a BIG deal for a private organization with (compared to a military) limited personal and logistics. If they are already using them for shore-based operations, it would make sense to also use them from their boats unless there is a reason they would not work.
Training and parts commonality works somewhat differently when you have a Patron that controls stakes in many multi-national corporations. In that case, you might have many charter companies and logistics firms that can provide aircraft services, but only a few individuals with each company are aware of the occult and provide special aircraft services.

So, for example, if ERA Group Inc. has a fleet of Agusta A-119s, Eurocopter EC-135s and Sikorsky S-61s, even if only one of those helicopters is routinely used to support Night Rider (Monster Hunter) operations, you still have parts commonality with the rest and while your read-in mechanics might have to fix some kinds of damage (or disguise it, at least), generally, you use uninitiated company staff for all kinds of maintenance.

There are some charter companies that are, officially at least, entirely unconnected to any of the Patron's businesses and these may exist for no other purpose than to operate archaic aircraft for entirely illegal services to monster-hunting vigilantes. Some of them might also run other charters, to provide camouflage if nothing else, but their reason for existing is to shuttle Night Riders out of dangerous situations.

I've provided one such company with four UH-61 Iroquois 'Huey' helicopters. For them, yes, this means parts commonality, but it won't really impact another charter company set up with clandestine funding, in some other part of the country (or in another country entirely).

So even if the helicopter of choice in Louisiana and environs is the Huey, that doesn't mean that whatever operation is set up in Florida has to copy it. After all, there is no pressing reason that the people in Florida even have to know about the charter company in Beaumont, TX.

And as for whatever is set up in Nassau and in other places in the Caribbean, it won't share any traceable connections with the charter companies in the US that provide illegal services. They might have maintenance contracts with legitimate logistics firms in the field of offshore oil or yachting, but they won't have any connections to the company in Beaumont that operates Hueys.

That being said, I'm not ruling out using Hueys. They are iconic helicopters that are exactly the right technology level and size for what I want. They also come with a pool of qualified pilots with military and security experience that is probably the largest we can get. Those are real advantages.

But I thought I'd explore what other options there were.

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I really do think you should just have them use their Hueys from boats as well unless you need them to be able to do other Navy or Coast Guard things like tracking and sinking surface ships (and even then, adding a sea track radar pod of some kind would do the trick). But my understanding is you want insertion, extraction, and possibly rescue. I think the UH-1 or possibly the UH-1N would be great for that, even from boats.
I agree that they make great options, especially in terms of size. And tracking surface ships is theoretically something that might be done (but more probably by a drone), while sinking them won't be.
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Old 04-04-2020, 07:53 AM   #38
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Especially when it comes to size and weight. I want helicopters that are TL7, can carry about as many as the Huey, but weigh as little as possible, so that the size of the ships required to supporting them is as little as possible.
Take a look at the HH-52, which was a USCG rescue helicopter for decades. It's like a smaller version of the Sea King, definitely handles seawater, uses the same engine, and should lift ten people without problems.

A suggestion for a cover for helicopter operations: an aircraft preservation group, like a smaller-scale version of the Commemorative Air Force.
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Old 04-04-2020, 08:10 AM   #39
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Default Helicopters for 'Night Rider' (Monster Hunter) Support

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Take a look at the HH-52, which was a USCG rescue helicopter for decades. It's like a smaller version of the Sea King, definitely handles seawater, uses the same engine, and should lift ten people without problems.
That sounds interesting. I see our Coast Guard, here in Iceland, used the HH-52. I don't recall seeing one*, but I'm trying to track down when it was in service.

Amphibious helicopters mean that they could hopefully be re-fueled from boats too small for them to land on. That would be perfect.

*Those I think I have seen include the Aérospatiale SA 365N Dauphin II and AS-332L1 Super Puma, Bombardier DHC-8-Q314, Eurocopter AS 350B Ecureuil and EC225 Super Pumas, Hughes 500C Defender and Sikorsky S-76 Spirit.

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A suggestion for a cover for helicopter operations: an aircraft preservation group, like a smaller-scale version of the Commemorative Air Force.
The Commemorative Air Force is based in Texas. In my campaign, Kessler has been contributing to it since about 1990 and in addition to the real-world Houston Wing, there is a Galveston Squadron. The Florida Wing is in DeLand and it and the Fantasy of Flight museum in Polk City, both of which are centrally located in Florida and convenient for the Florida team to have connections to both.

Also, the Lone Star Flight Museum, in my campaign, has obvious connections to Kessler's people. This is useful for the prop planes that the organization uses, in addition to some of the helicopters.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:07 AM   #40
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Default Re: UH-1 Huey for Maritime CSAR/TRAP/Medevac/Casevac

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Take a look at the HH-52, which was a USCG rescue helicopter for decades. It's like a smaller version of the Sea King, definitely handles seawater, uses the same engine, and should lift ten people without problems.

A suggestion for a cover for helicopter operations: an aircraft preservation group, like a smaller-scale version of the Commemorative Air Force.
There are several of problems with using the HH-52 though:

1) They are really old. The last one was built in 1969. While that doesn't mean you couldn't get one flying reliably, helicopters age significantly worse than fixed wing aircraft. You could get UH-1s that have much younger airframes. There is also a difference between getting sobering ready for occasional historical flights and combat operations.
2) Only 175 were ever built. That is a pretty small number compared to the more than 16,000 UH-1s of all variants. Finding surviving ones that can be made air worthy and cannibalizing parts will be much more difficult.
3) It's performance was not great. It's speed topped it at 95 knots and it cruised at 85 knots. Even for a helicopter, that is a bit on the slow side. By comparison, the UH-1 cruises at 109 knots and tops out at 117 knots.

It does have the not insignificant advantage of being able to actually land in the water though, and it has 1.5x the range than the UH-1, so there are advantages.

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