Self Destruct Optional Rule?

pzmcgwire · 05-16-2018, 02:28 PM

What was the original Ogre self-destruct optional rule in the Metagaming edition of Ogre? Was it too unbalancing and so removed from future editions?

Steve Jackson · 05-16-2018, 11:04 PM

Yes, any sort of self destruct changes the balance and, perhaps worse, the flavor of the game. It becomes possible to view the Ogre as just a suicide bomb on treads, and that's no fun. Its job is to kill YOU, not to die itself.

HeatDeath · 05-17-2018, 10:24 AM

To paraphrase Hunt for Red October: "We're talking about several billion dollars of Combine state property. We're gonna want it back." :)

offsides · 05-17-2018, 10:42 AM

Or to quote Patton, even if it's not quite accurate here :)

“No dumb b*****d ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb b*****d die for his country.”

(Not sure if that would otherwise have been caught by the profanity filters.)

GranitePenguin · 05-17-2018, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzmcgwire

What was the original Ogre self-destruct optional rule in the Metagaming edition of Ogre? Was it too unbalancing and so removed from future editions?

to get back to the other half of the question, it was basically:

Ogres in the same hex: destroyed
all other units within 4 hexes: destroyed
all armor units 5 hexes away: disabled

So, yeah... _very_ unbalancing and pretty un-fun. In the context of the game, it shortens the map by 4 hexes if the Ogre can waltz up and blow itself to bits and take out the CP. Many, many games of Ogre are decided within the last 4 hexes; the destruct rule was a real party-pooper

ColBosch · 05-17-2018, 04:54 PM

Wow, yeah, since it's almost an auto-win for the Ogre. Once you get within those last few hexes, basically everything the defender's got is going to be within four hexes, blasting away. I don't think the dynamic of "the Ogre is getting close to the CP, so my armor units should run away so I can hopefully pull out a draw" is very good.

It does impress me just how quickly SJ fixed the flaws in the game between the first and second editions; there was less than a year between them!

pzmcgwire · 05-17-2018, 05:04 PM

Thanks for the original Self Destruct rule. I can see how that would tilt things toward the Ogre.

If I recall there were also the following changes in the 2nd Metagaming printing.

Heavy Tank movement allowance was increased to 3 from 2

GEV second phase movement was reduced from 4 to 3

Armor unit selection was changed from combat factors to units with howitzers counting as two units.

Did I miss anything?

ColBosch · 05-17-2018, 05:26 PM

That's all the major changes. I think the wording was also tightened up and clarified in a few places without actual rules changes. Right now I'd need to break out a stepladder to get down my MetaGaming copies of Ogre, but if you really want I can do so.

GranitePenguin · 05-17-2018, 06:06 PM

One of the more interesting "not rules" changes that happened was a compression of the board. The 1st Ed map is 3 hexes longer (more space in the south edge) than the 2nd Ed.

The ridges are in slightly different locations, too.

pzmcgwire · 05-17-2018, 06:22 PM

No need to pull anything from storage. I found a page that summarizes the changes here: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/update.html

Yep, the shortened map is mentioned.

Though it doesn't mention the removal of the self-destruct rule. :)

Regarding the ridges, I wonder how it was determined what hexsides would have ridges on them. I suppose the ridges favor the Ogre by limiting the movement of the defending units.

I believe the craters are results of cruise missile strikes. Are the ridges also fallout from the cruise missiles?

05-16-2018, 02:28 PM	#1
pzmcgwire Join Date: May 2018	Self Destruct Optional Rule? What was the original Ogre self-destruct optional rule in the Metagaming edition of Ogre? Was it too unbalancing and so removed from future editions?

05-16-2018, 11:04 PM	#2
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? Yes, any sort of self destruct changes the balance and, perhaps worse, the flavor of the game. It becomes possible to view the Ogre as just a suicide bomb on treads, and that's no fun. Its job is to kill YOU, not to die itself.

05-17-2018, 10:24 AM	#3
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? To paraphrase Hunt for Red October: "We're talking about several billion dollars of Combine state property. We're gonna want it back." :)

05-17-2018, 10:42 AM	#4
offsides Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cheltenham, PA	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? Or to quote Patton, even if it's not quite accurate here :) “No dumb b***d ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb b***d die for his country.” (Not sure if that would otherwise have been caught by the profanity filters.) __________________ Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division

05-17-2018, 04:54 PM	#6
ColBosch Join Date: May 2007	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? Wow, yeah, since it's almost an auto-win for the Ogre. Once you get within those last few hexes, basically everything the defender's got is going to be within four hexes, blasting away. I don't think the dynamic of "the Ogre is getting close to the CP, so my armor units should run away so I can hopefully pull out a draw" is very good. It does impress me just how quickly SJ fixed the flaws in the game between the first and second editions; there was less than a year between them!

05-17-2018, 05:04 PM	#7
pzmcgwire Join Date: May 2018	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? Thanks for the original Self Destruct rule. I can see how that would tilt things toward the Ogre. If I recall there were also the following changes in the 2nd Metagaming printing. Heavy Tank movement allowance was increased to 3 from 2 GEV second phase movement was reduced from 4 to 3 Armor unit selection was changed from combat factors to units with howitzers counting as two units. Did I miss anything?

05-17-2018, 05:26 PM	#8
ColBosch Join Date: May 2007	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? That's all the major changes. I think the wording was also tightened up and clarified in a few places without actual rules changes. Right now I'd need to break out a stepladder to get down my MetaGaming copies of Ogre, but if you really want I can do so.

05-17-2018, 06:06 PM	#9
GranitePenguin *Ogre* Line Editor Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Plainfield, IL	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? One of the more interesting "not rules" changes that happened was a compression of the board. The 1st Ed map is 3 hexes longer (more space in the south edge) than the 2nd Ed. The ridges are in slightly different locations, too. __________________ GranitePenguin *Ogre* Line Editor

05-17-2018, 06:22 PM	#10
pzmcgwire Join Date: May 2018	Re: Self Destruct Optional Rule? No need to pull anything from storage. I found a page that summarizes the changes here: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/update.html Yep, the shortened map is mentioned. Though it doesn't mention the removal of the self-destruct rule. :) Regarding the ridges, I wonder how it was determined what hexsides would have ridges on them. I suppose the ridges favor the Ogre by limiting the movement of the defending units. I believe the craters are results of cruise missile strikes. Are the ridges also fallout from the cruise missiles?