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Old 09-30-2012, 09:34 PM   #131
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I've seen pictures from WWII. Many of those guys would be considered tiny today.
FWIW, the cohort that fought in WWII (born around 1910 or 1920) averaged only two inches shorter than the cohort born in 1970.


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Originally Posted by Pragmatic View Post
I believe his point is, he's trying to find the "mean" (i.e., the average woman), plus or minus a standard deviation--roughly the middle 68% of the population.
For context, a handy calculator which refers to population height/weight tables. Some data points from it:

Median US male age 20-29:
- 5'9.6"
- 168#
- 132# lean body weight

Median US female age 20-29:
- 5'4.3"
- 130#
- 100# lean body weight

30%-ile US male age 20-29:
- 5'8.2"
- 154#
- 124# lean body weight

90%-ile US female age 20-29:
- 5'7.5"
- 164#
- 119# lean body weight


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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Modern militaries aren't really based on the mean of any population.
Their applicant pools are large enough and diverse enough to be statistically very similar to the population mean in many respects.


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A quick search on Google shows that only 6.8% of American active marines are women. I don't think that is because of statistical differences in the sexes alone.
It's worth noting that there are significant cultural effects regarding who joins the military in the US. As a result, its makeup tells us a limited amount about biological differences.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #132
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

I think it is safe to say that cultural concerns and performance requirements based on technology could result in a wide range of demographic representations. In a culture with sufficient body-modification technology, biological sex may be irrelevant - women or men who are "too small" may be sent for some cybernetic reconstruction / genetic modification / voo-doo so that they all have the right musculature (actually, one military I designed did exactly this). Another culture might limit access to different positions based on gender - perhaps the more aggressive genders will be assigned to infantry, while the cooler genders are fast-tracked to high command. Yet another society may find a way to temporarily neuter all members of the military to avoid all such problems - doesn't matter who you preferred before, because you are asexual until you quit or retire!

There are of course plenty of other options, many of the less technological of which have already been played out in real life - consider the differing placement of homosexuals in the various militaries of the world over the last few decades, and the placement of transgender and other less accepted orientations over the next few decades.

Regardless, sex and gender will only be one issue of any hypothetical ultra-tech military, and in game terms will probably only be as important as it is to the gamers themselves - a group comfortable with each others' orientations won't care unless the GM forces the issue for some reason.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:24 PM   #133
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

Maybe somebody else has already mentioned this, but elections to choose officers and NCOs is not just for Sci Fi. It's actually been used in the real world, and fairly recently, too.


It wasn't uncommon among volunteer units in the ACW, on both sides.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:21 AM   #134
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

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Originally Posted by DCB View Post
...
It's worth noting that there are significant cultural effects regarding who joins the military in the US. As a result, its makeup tells us a limited amount about biological differences.
That was my point all along. A non-sexist human culture would have a much closer ratio of men to women than modern militaries.
I use the term sexist to include cultural based gender roles, not just overt "one sex is better than the other" forms.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:37 AM   #135
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

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That was my point all along. A non-sexist human culture would have a much closer ratio of men to women than modern militaries.
I use the term sexist to include cultural based gender roles, not just overt "one sex is better than the other" forms.
Isn't 'sexist' a loaded term? It seems to imply that you think of this question in ideological terms.


That seems less than helpful.



Have you considered that the persistent and nearly universal 'sex gap' in militaries reflects something more basic in human nature?

Men and women have many notable biological and psychological differences, rooted in our evolutionary history as much as in the cultures we have developed (not that the two can really be separated). Men are on average larger, stronger, and more physically aggressive. It certainly seems that one of their biological roles is to fight and protect. Women are built to bear children and nurse them.

Even those comparatively few cultures in which women have taken up roles as soldiers or warriors in significant numbers have relied mainly on men for fighting strength. Female warriors and soldiers tend to be unusual.

Keep in mind that in modern militaries that use women, women are mainly found working in support roles. Modern militaries have more support jobs than pre-modern militaries.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:14 AM   #136
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Isn't 'sexist' a loaded term? It seems to imply that you think of this question in ideological terms.
...
Not really. If decisions are based on actual innate differences, then it's not sexist in the negative sense. I admit that of course there are statistical differences, mentally, emotionally, and physically between the sexes. But I certainly don't think it is anywhere near the only 6.8% of Marines being women level. I would almost like someone to argue that it is if only to make a dramatic shocked expression at the monitor. ;)
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:01 AM   #137
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Not really. If decisions are based on actual innate differences, then it's not sexist in the negative sense. I admit that of course there are statistical differences, mentally, emotionally, and physically between the sexes. But I certainly don't think it is anywhere near the only 6.8% of Marines being women level. I would almost like someone to argue that it is if only to make a dramatic shocked expression at the monitor. ;)
Just to start off you are tacitly assuming that a substantially large number of females are attempting to enlist in the first place and that 6.8% is what is left after a substantial number are rejected.

An accurate statistic would tell what percentage of each were actually attempting to enlist and of these which percentage were rejected.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:18 AM   #138
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Default Re: Creating Military Culture From Scratch

In any case sexist millitaries are standard in history and androgynist millitaries are fairly common among scifi. Are there any other possible arrangements? How about an army with both patriarchal and matriarchal regiments in roughly equal numbers?
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:19 AM   #139
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Just to start off you are tacitly assuming that a substantially large number of females are attempting to enlist in the first place and that 6.8% is what is left after a substantial number are rejected.

An accurate statistic would tell what percentage of each were actually attempting to enlist and of these which percentage were rejected.
I include cultural gender role indoctrination in the over arching concept of sexism.
It doesn't matter exactly why the percentage is so low. The fact that biological differences can't account for more than a tiny part, means that there must be other non-egalitarian reasons. That means sexism.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:40 AM   #140
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I include cultural gender role indoctrination in the over arching concept of sexism..
That is another way of saying "Flyndaran knows what is best for women who prefer not to enlist in the marines better then women who prefer not to enlist in the marines." And that "other people's preferences are best explained by brainwashing but Flyndaran is absolutely objective."
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