06-17-2009, 01:05 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: May 2008
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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06-17-2009, 04:25 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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I never said this property of the pick should be abolished or that the rules shouldn't exist. I just noted that this was not a concern likely to influence weapon selection for many heroic PCs. Generally, at least in my experience, such characters aim to have damage and skill high enough to make it unecessary to attack the same limb many times. Picks, as the rules currently stand, are good for those not confident of their ability to deal fight winning blows with lighter weapons. That generally excludes most combat-oriented PCs in my campaigns.
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06-17-2009, 06:26 PM | #33 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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It does sw+1 Imp, which is great, but that is offset by the fact that it can only be used every other turn, limits your movement when it does hit etc. The Axe clearly is the superior weapon for Damage dealt per blow in the 10-18 ST range. Furthermore, its not just the Axe, the light club is almost as good, the mace is better (except for narrow range of 18ST between DR 0 and 3), and thats only considering comprable weapons (one handed, unblalanced, less than 100$ MIN-ST=10+-1) Its just a useless weapon if the fight lasts more than one turn. Nymdok |
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06-17-2009, 06:49 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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Against an unarmoured foe, a ST 11 character does 1d+1 cut with an axe, which averages 6.75 points of injury per bow. The pick does 1d imp, which averages 7 points. Sure, the pick does half that in the later round, but then again, there's no need to roll to hit and the opponent doesn't get a defence. That's not irrelevant. And the pick can target vitals. But the current rules and the Low-Tech rules might be subtly different.
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06-17-2009, 07:18 PM | #35 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and some other bits.
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
Oddly enough, although a good pick is more expensive than a good axe, a fine pick is a lot cheaper than a fine axe.
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06-17-2009, 09:22 PM | #36 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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Axe DMG - (1d+3)*1.5 = 9.5 Pick DMG = (1d+2)*2 = 11 Where the Average of 1D is of course 3.5. Fair enough, for the First round, the edge goes to the Pick. The Second Turn, IF you beat your ST, your pick will do the damage, so the total Expectation of Damage that round is 11*(.63) where .63 is your odds of rolling 11 or less on 3d6. EVEN IF YOU DO, your total Dmg for those 2 rounds averages 11+(11*.5*.63*.5) The first .5 is because it does half damage on the way out. The Second is becase its over 2 turns the .63 is again the odds that you'll be able to do the damage at all! Thats 11+1.7 or 12.7 compared to the Axes 19! We assumed that both attacks Hit the first round, knowing what we know now, lets take a glancing look at what might happen for the Axeman in the second round. To match the Pickmans Expectation of 12.7 we need to be 34 percent likely to score a hit. [12.7-9.5 = 3.2; 3.2/9.5 = 33.7] To score a hit, the attacker must succeed and the defender must fail. In other words (Odds Attacker Will Succeed)*(Odds defender will fail) > .337 The numbers are even more complex still when we look at crits, because they get no defense. The basic equation Looks like this: (Crit Odds)+(Odds Attacker will hit without Crit)*(Odds Defender will Fail)>34% For Example If the AxeMan has a 16 Skill and Takes a simple attack on that 2nd turn then we need the odds the defender will fail to be about 28% or about a 12 for a defense. If the Axeman Takes a DecepAttack down to 12, Giving the Defender -2, then the Defender can have a Defense up to 13 and still outpace the pickman! Feel free to do your own calculations for other skill levels. As far as the vitals go, I treated that here http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=23 And that was assuming the Pickman had 3 levels HIGHER of skill than the Axeman (An unfair advantage!). Nymdok |
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06-17-2009, 09:27 PM | #37 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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At Dr <= 2 Axe Dmg is greater At Dr >= 5 Pick Dmg is greater. At Dr =3-4 Dmg is Similar Nymdok |
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06-17-2009, 09:39 PM | #38 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
Yet the pick still has the ability to target chinks in armor AND vitals. That's a big deal when you're fighting opponents in armor that can stand up to any one-handed weapon that's swung at you(say DR8-9).
For Instance, ST 11 man with Pick, Mace and Axe vs DR 8 Axe: 1d+3 cut, 4-9 base damage, average 6.5 Mace: 2d cru, 2-12 base damage, average 7 Pick: 1d+2 Imp, 3-8 base damage, average 5.5 None of these weapons can penetrate the armor on an average roll, the axe and mace can both do some damage on a lucky roll, while the pick is unable to do so. However, the Pick, unlike the Axe or Mace is able to be used to target the chinks in the armor, reducing the DR to 4, allowing it to actually inflict damage. If the pick was also targeting the vitals, then it's possible to actually inflict a considerable amount of damage over the axe.
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06-17-2009, 10:40 PM | #39 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=23 To get 8 levels better of skill to offset the Penalty, thats 24 points. Thats 3 levels of ST (without the HP) which, although I havent run those numbers, they should offset by moving the average to 9 dmg. (50/50 getting through that armor). Or for that matter, By a nice grappling skill and wrench him into a Picasso sculpture :) The point is that once we begin treating our hypothetical warriors THAT differently, the comparrison is more about warrior than weapon. Nymdok |
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06-17-2009, 11:33 PM | #40 | |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe
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Tags |
axe, combat, melee, pick, weapons |
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