[Melee] Pick V Axe

[ADAXL]

The pick has another disadvantage: It is super-specialized anti-armor weapon.

It is good for only one thing (armor penetration). Axes have many other practical applications, such as chopping wood (not just for the campfire, but also to clear brush and build field fortifications). A man with a pick will need a hatchet anyway. This means extra cost and weight to lug around.

Axes with a pick as the backspike can do both, though.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Kazander

It also doesn't take into account that picks have only -6 to hit chinks in armor, vs -8 for the axe.

Without a backspike, the axe can't target armor chinks at all. Only Impaling, Piercing, and Tight Beam Burning damage can do so.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Dave E

Why carry it instead of an Axe? Well, you can use it to attack vitals, for a start.

Further reflections on those numbers.
If we assume that the Pick wielder has 3 levels skill higher just for the sake of making the math easier, say that the Pick wielder is targeting the vitals then....

DR0
1d = Axe - 8.3, Pick - 8.4
2d = Axe - 13.5, Pick - 15
3d = Axe - 18.7, Pick - 21.6

DR7
1d = Axe - .3, Pick - 0
2d = Axe - 3.4, Pick - 2.9
3d = Axe - 8.3, Pick - 8.6


Vs DR7 using Chink in armor for SW+1(2) Imp
1d = 2.1
2d = 6.2
3d = 10.6

Again, this is assuming that the Pick Weilder has 3 levels of skill higher than the axeman for vitals attacks and 6 more skill levels for CIA so that we can avoid taking attack and defense expectation values.

So it appears that its only viable against an axe if
A. You have a high enough ST to ensure your withdrawl
B. A high enough skill to ensure you hit vs Vitals or CIA

That still seems woefully outta whack.

Nymdok

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by ADAXL

The pick has another disadvantage: It is super-specialized anti-armor weapon.

It is good for only one thing (armor penetration).

In reality, yes. In GURPS picks are superior against unarmoured opponents but inferior to axes against armoured foes.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

The fact that it gets stuck is something of a mixed blessing. In the RAW it almost seems like a free Hook or Grapple manuver with every successful hit.

In the event that your opponent doesnt move, you only have to beat your own strength which is normally 10 (50/50) and heroic PCs Im sure will have it higher. Also it is ready the turn it is removed (or did I read that wrong?)

Even if you always make the ST roll, you still have to use a Ready manouvre to free the weapon.

This means that for every successful attack, you need to waste a second.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

At any rate, Drop and Fast draw seem like a great failsafe. At only 4 lbs, carrying two seems like an Easy fix.

Axe/Mace weapons aren't among the categories listed for Fast-Draw and the GM is under no obligation to allow Fast-Draw of such weapons.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Althoguh I havent run the numbers, it seems that the swords major advantage here is its ability to parry on the same turn it attacks.

Among other things. It also doesn't get stuck.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

As its impaling, targeting the eyes and vitals is still a viable option.

You can't kill someone deader than dead. If a character can take down most foes with one sword attack to the vitals or eyes, it's just a waste of effort for him to use a pick for that extra damage.

And getting his weapon stuck in a dead or dying foe doesn't help much.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

For the limbs, the reduction to 1x multiplier is offset largely due to exit damage. I may run those numbers next :)

If you've already crippled the limb, what good does the exit damage do you?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Molokh

What is this 'minor' change?

Now, now; I said if.

If you want to know anything concrete about the upcoming Cabaret Chicks on Ice, I suggest you ask the authors. I have no authority to release sneak previews and can only drop weaselly hints that slowly drive forumites insane.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by tanniynim

Historically, warhammers/picks weren't really used until TL 4 when armor was too strong for swords and axes. The pick is *designed* to pierce armor and does a pretty good job with Impaling and the +2 to targeting chinks. You can't have it at TL 2 where a lot of DF takes place.

I really like pairing the pick with a spiked shield and/or some throwing axes and Off-handed weapon training for some versatility.

But , if I understand correctly, the Sumerians etc developed pick-like narrow bladed axes, in order to punch through bronze helmets. Sort of a third millenium arms race, as the bronze helmet had made the stone headed mace a bit redundant.

EDIT: "...in order to punch through...." is obviously a guess, as I am not currently on speaking terms with any Sumerian weaponsmiths.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Icelander

<snip>


If you've already crippled the limb, what good does the exit damage do you?

Expanded Bleeding rules, you track *all* damage for purposes of modifiers to bleeding rolls, right? IDHMBWM.
Also, I'd consider - if not already covered by RAW - to sum up both going-in and going-out damage for purposes of Dismemberment (or call it permanent crippling).

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Even if you always make the ST roll, you still have to use a Ready manouvre to free the weapon.

This means that for every successful attack, you need to waste a second.


Axe/Mace weapons aren't among the categories listed for Fast-Draw and the GM is under no obligation to allow Fast-Draw of such weapons.

For the First...being stuck is not ALWAYS a disadvantage. Under 1E I was playing a ST 16 DR 8 and MOVE 5 dwarf. In a DR 2-4 world I usually wanted CQB and if people started running away from me I had problems...the pick often solved them nicely. Unless it was obvious I would need "some" manuver I would usually start with pick and go with it until circumstances dictated otherwise...Then I would FD a Broadsword.

Part 2 QFT. I took me literally years (IC and OC) of carrying 8 Throwing Hatchets and an Armory Skill of 20-21...before I was "able" to come up with a "snap grommit" type holster that allowed me to FD Hatchets...(mebbe the GM was just taking pity I dunno). I never got the FD skill for Pick. (the reason I often just carried it...i could always FD the Broadswords or (after time) the Hatchets - useful if they decided to run)>

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Expanded Bleeding rules, you track *all* damage for purposes of modifiers to bleeding rolls, right? IDHMBWM.
Also, I'd consider - if not already covered by RAW - to sum up both going-in and going-out damage for purposes of Dismemberment (or call it permanent crippling).

*shrug*

In most realistic settings, a crippled enemy is crippled and you don't care about him anymore. Whether he dies, lives as a cripple for the rest of his days or recovers completely is probably irrelevant to most characters who are only concerned with that he stop trying to kill them.