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Old 06-19-2009, 04:34 AM   #81
Verjigorm
 
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

Nymdok: First, I'd like to apologize. I've been a bit of a d-bag in this thread, and I'm not sure why. Sorry. Now, onto the buisness at hand. Variables.

GURPS has ALOT of variables in it's combat systems, so many that the simple metric of damage per second(or turn, for game systems that don't use 1 second turns..the silly blighters). I'd like to discuss some of these variables.

First, the issue of Armor. GURPS Basic is woefully inadquete in it's depiction of armor. Most armor is given a homogenous DR, which creates strange inaccuracies. For example, for a swordsman, the best way to defeat armor is though high ST and swing damage, as compared to thrusts at the weak points of armor. This is not consistent with the way real weapons and armor have evolved, especially in europe(where the Armourer's craft reach it's highest degree of expertise). As armor's protective value increased, european swords evolved to favor a lighter balance, shiftignthe point of percussion further down the blade, increasing the control of the tip to allow for a more accurate thrust. At the same time, the sword increasingly became a side-arm, not a primary arm, while specific weapons were developed to counter armor. GURPS does not currently model this.

However, Dan Howard's work in 3e is quite interesting, with numerous armours having different values agaisnt different damage types. Icelander, Myself and Bruno(amongst others) have also created some interesting, though sometimes contradictory, house rules regarding armor. I have an extremely high degree of faith that Low-Tech will address many of the current failings of the Basic Set. Of course, that's what these tech supplements are for, to provide increased detail to specific epochs. On the otherhand, basic set does provide a few interesting examples of armors with split DRs, especially in the higher-tech levels(modern ballistic armor, for example), which are good areas to look at.

Second, the issue of ST, HP, HT and their correlation to Major Wounds, Knockdown and Stunning. While you are correct that as ST/HP/HT increase, the chances of major wounds change, you are incorrect if you are assuming that the decrease. As ST/HP goes up, Major Wounds actually become easier to inflict. This is due to the Major Wound threshold beign set at 1/2 HP, so it increases by 1 for every two full points of HP gained. Meanwhile, the swing damage possible increases by 1 per step. Thus, a ST 12 man fighting a ST 12 man actually has a greater ability to inflict a major wound. this is a bit counter-intuitive, actually.

For example, assuming an equal ST to ST ratio for two fighters:
ST 10: 1d swing, 6 HP major wound. 1 in 6 chance of inflictign a major wound.
ST 12: 1d+2 swing, 7 HP major wound, 1 in 3 chance of inflictign a major wound.
ST 14: 2d swing, 8 HP major wound, almost a 50% chance of a major wound.

As far as HT goes, there are few ways of counter-acting high HT, Hard to Subdue or High Pain Tolerance. However, one of the chief means of coutner-acting this is also the most power: hit location. The viability of each hit location is dependent upon the type of damage(cutting, impaling, etc) and it's mode(swing vs. thrust).
Eyes: One of the most difficult hit locations to target, it's also one of the most limited, with three damage types(Impaling, Piercing and Tight-Beam burning) being able to inflict damage. However, the Major Wound threshold is tiny(often 1-2pts of damage will inflict a major wound) and it circumvents the skull and Helmet DR, for most armors(discounting high-tech transparant visors).
Skull: Only slightly less difficult to hit than the eyes, the skull has it's own innate DR. However, damage type or mode is essentially worthless here, because all damage types(other than Toxic) recieve a x4 multiplier. Thus, the only real issue here is how much basic damage can the weapon pump out. In this regard, the Mace is the real king, being capable of splitting skulls quite handily. There is also no limit to what modes of attack can be used against the skull. Both the Skull and Eyes provide a hefty -10 penalty to Knockdown/stunning checks, enough to make the rudest boy shut up and sit down.
Face: The face share's the skull's open accessibility, yet it does't provided any form of increased damage multiplier. It does, however provide a nice -5 penalty to Kndown/Stun, and it's fairly easy to target. However, the amount of protection to the face is fairly signifigant and can nullify it's accessibility.
Vitals: The vitals increase the damage multiplier of piercing and impaling attacks, while providing a nice -5 modifier to knockdown/stun for crushing, impaling and piercing. The vitals are also one of the easiest hit locations to target. However, the damage types that can target it are quite limited, and the Torso often has the highest armor, after the skull.

The penalties to Knockdown/Stun in these cases can quickly outpace the bonuses a character has to these checks. Even a combat brute such as Ghazkull, who had HT 14, Hard to Subdue 2 and High Pain Tolerance, can be laid low by a good crack on the skull*. In this case, taking the time to target his skull/eyes or even just the Vitals is definitely worth it, because with an effective HT of 19, such a character just isn't suceptible to beign nickled and dimed to death by small amounts of damage. As I've stated before, this character was one who fought on after recieving over 60+ points of damage in one encounter, and never once did I feel like he was going to collapse from accumulated wounds.

This is also one reason why I often choose swords over axes, picks and spears. Swords have a flexibility in available targets that all other weapons lack. Thus, swords are quite possibly the best general purpose weapons in GURPS, especially when coupled with a shield.

Third, the type of foe you face can effect your tactical decisions. When facing multiple opponents who are low-skilled(Skill-12 or so), while you enjoy exceptional skill(16+), your best option is often Deceptive, Rapid Strikes at Limbs(such as the leg or sword arm) to quickly disable multiple opponents, and reduce the number of attacks inbound, which will eventually over-come your defences. In this situation, DPS becomes a much more valuable metric than it would normally be, and cutting weapons excel due to their ability to rapidly dismember. Axes and swords are quite excellent weapons in these situations, though the axe suffers due to it's unbalanced nature(but see Defensive Attack and the Shield).

On the other side of the equation, when facing a single skilled opponent, making a great deal of attacks is a dangerous proposition due to Counter-Attacks, Ripostes and Beats. In this case, you are often better served by evaluating, making a feint(either for it's offensive or defensive qualities) and capitilizing on your opponent's lack of defense with a devestating attack launched against one of the more difficult target locations. Picks are quite good in this role, due to their access to several target locations, as well as the chinks in armor rules. And in comparison to swords, they inflict more damage against these locations(swing vs. thrust).
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:35 AM   #82
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

Continued

The sheer number of variables available in GURPS combat lend it versimilitude, but also make it quite difficult for many new players to grasp. Many of the people in my loose circle of gaming buddies come from a D&D backgound, and as such, were used to raw damage being the deciding factor in combat. In D&D, the shield is essentially useless after 3rd level, while the Greatsword becomes an almost universal weapon due to it's superiority in damage and crits. In GURPS, sword and board are one of the most effective weapon combos available to a fighter.

This difficulty in adapting has been shown numerous times, especially with one budy of mine who hada penchent for playing big monsters(ogres, minotaurs, etc) in various GURPS games. He scoffed at my "mod to 10" rule, in which I basically stack as many modifiers on my attack so as to reduce my effective skill to 10, and he also considered my "wait-n-see" tactics of using evuluates and feints to launch devestating coup de graces to be a waste of time. However, time and time again, he floundered as his big monsters struggled to take out opponents who used Retreats, Feverish Defences and AoDs to avoid being hit by his hideously damaging weapons. At the same time, my more human-sized weapon masters often tore through numerous defenders of the same type he encountered, because I recognized how to utilize the various manuvers and techniques available to me.

In yet another example of the depth of GURPS, during an Arena/Tournament game, I had a lightweight(maille) fighter with a heavy spear fighting against a heavily armored(maille + lamellar and scale) sword and board fighter. The Sword-n-board guy gloated before the match that I stood no chance, due to lesser damage of my spear, it's inability to fight in close-combat and the superiority of the sword + shield combo. He attested that he was going to close with me, and beat me to death in my "blindspot" at 1 hex reach where I would be unable to fight him effectively. A parried shield rush later, and he found himself in an armed grapple, which quickly resulted in a broken sword arm. From that point on, I circled him, using tip slashes and well-planned thrusts at the chinks in his armor(vitals) to quickly kill him. Clever usage of the different manuvers and techniques available more than evened the odds, despite my "inferior" equipment.

So what's my point? I've wandered a bit, but I think I can get back to it: Oh yeah, the weapon alone does not decide the fight. Several weapons DO just generally suck, or have extremely limited oppurtunities(i.e. the pick**), but through clever use of the different variables, a skilled user can be quite competitive, even against "superior" weapons. The degree of options available in GURPS can be overwhelming and difficult to compare, but it also allows many weapons combinations to be effective, often as effective or more effective than the "superior" weapons. I hope this post has been more constructive and helpful than my last few posts. Again, I apologize for the uncouth manner I had taken with you.

*Granted, the DR 12 Ghazkull enjoyed on his skull, and the DR 6-8 he enjoyed over his torso, and the high defences he had due to a large shield, light encumberance and high skill made this a difficult proposition at best. But Ghazkull was built to be a "brick", an "immovable obstacle" in combat, and he lived up to his reputation.
** I think the Pick does indeed suck. I rarely consider taking a pick as my primary weapon, or even as a back-up. Instead I consider arming myself with a weapon that combines some other damage type(such as a mace or axe) with a backspike for when I want/need to take advantage of the pick's particular strengths. I don't think this is bad, however, as dedicated picks are quite rare weapons. Even in Persia and Europe, many warriors used axes or hammers with thrusting spikes and backspikes, though there are examples of quite fine picks from both cultures. Both cultures also had advanced armor, that was in abundance in the fighting classes.

P.S.: The Picks, Polearms and Pikes of Poland was rather clever. :)
P.P.S.: This is my secodn attempt to post this in 2-3 hours. 1st time got eaten, and it was bit more winded. Hope this helps.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:23 AM   #83
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Nymdok: First, I'd like to apologize...
No need to apologize. For any debate/discussion to bring forth ideas, there must be opposition to vet assertions. Without it, we'd just believe anything anyone told us :).

Your assertions that the model isn't sophisticated enough to show the picks true strengths of

MajorWounding/Stun
Possibility of CIA,Vitals,eyes.

are things Im working on right now and are valid observations. I had gotten around these considerations by assuming equality among combatants, but knowing where they truly offset one another is worth knowing and I my treat that later, seperately if possible. For example, what HT/DR combination makes the Pick a better chioce for its 'sawtooh' shaped damage distribution curve verus the Axe's more traditional 'pulsed' shape.

Code:
 
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Drawings not ot scale :)


Your assertion that we cant do a complete analysis till Low Tech comes out because we dont have a full picture of the armor and weapons is ALSO valid. You cant do good analysis without all the data. :)

I agree that the sword/shield is one of the most versitile weapon combos in the game.

Truth all told, I have recently been having something of a honeymoon with the Axe for raw damage output, ability to be thrown, ability to carry a shield, and cost. Depending on what appears in low tech, I may put a pick on the back of it :)

The point is the combat mechanics in GURPS are great for their subtlety. They allow differnt weapons to shine reliably in different situations. I felt (Ttowards the middle of the thread) that the Pick had not been statted to be competetive even in the arena for which it was historically designed (vs heavily armored opponents).

The weapon most certainly does not decide the fight. Good tac, good decisions, and alot of times just plain old dumb luck can do as much as any of the other factors. However, knowing what the advantages one weapon has over another, and when those advantages are relevant, is important to making good decisions.

I havent played other systems since 1st Ed AD&D, and Ive only been GURPSing since 4e came out (A considerable gap inbetween). One of the things i didnt like about 1e D&D is that certain weapons were pointless/redundant (Hammer/Mace/shortsword for example all did 1-6 so what difference did it make?). Hitting GURPS, I was well pleased with the way weapons were balanced with each other, which is why I was curious enough about the relationship between pick and axe to start this thread.

Your enthusiasm for combat (as indicated by your sig) and willingness to defend a normally obscure weapon that might have well gone undefended (how many pick proponents do you run across?) are what will be remembered by those that read this thread. Everything else is water under the bridge :)

Nymdok

Last edited by Nymdok; 06-20-2009 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:27 AM   #84
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
Why do I think the Axe should be superior at low DRs? I believe that it should, but I really dont have a good logical or medical reason why. Is there a doctor in the house?
Do we really need a doctor, or just someone with a basic understanding of physics. If base damage is simply KE, both the axe and the pick are a heavy metal head on a handle, not too different from a mace. The difference between them is the area that that KE is applied over. Picks concentrate it all in a point, and thus have little tissue disruption. Axes spread it out over a (roughly) 2-D line. This gives an axe a "broader" area of tissue disruption than a pick, although the pick is almost certainly "deeper."

The way I've always considered damage to be measured was by the "area" of the tissue disruption rather than the depth. I mean, both a handgun and a rifle round can blow through you, but the rifle creates a larger temporary cavity due to it's high speed and KE, right?

I don't know. I don't know if there is an official breakdown of what exactly "damage" entails beyond a game-mechanical abstraction of how long you can last in combat.

Personally, I think an axe should do more damage to an unarmored human than a pick. I had a fellow Marine who put the point of a pickaxe through his foot. He was limping for a while, but eventually he was back to full duty. If he had done the same thing with an axe, there was a much greater chance of severing something permanently.

Quote:
(how many pick proponents do you run across?)
I like picks! I almost always put one on the back of any axe-wielder I might make. I was just busy decompressing from graduating this week....
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:34 AM   #85
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

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Do we really need a doctor, or just someone with a basic understanding of physics.....
Well a basic understanding of physics, I got :)

What I dont have is a good grasp on how those physics affect the human body. To approximations in the First order, we could just assume that the body is a bag of water and it leaks out faster through a gash than a hole, but that may be a bit too elementary of a treatment. :)

You could also make the argument that the 'long-shallow' wound made by the axe is long enough but deep enough against an unarmored opponent to do more damage than the pick whose puncture wound wont change diameter much between punching through raw skin or plate.

In the heavier armored case, the contact area between axe head and flesh through armor is not as long nor deep andtherefore the wound volume is much much less. With the pick, the volume of the wound is not decreased as severely through armor.

As i sit and type this, that seems very reasonable! I think Ill use it as sufficient justification to go ahead with the math :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
I like picks! I almost always put one on the back of any axe-wielder I might make...
Knowing what I know now, i still dont care for them as a primary weapon choice, and Im curious to see if Low Tech changes things. Up thread we saw that there is at least one case (Opponent has High DR, Moderate HT: Weilder has high skill/Attack Advantage for Chink in armor, High ST) where the high initial damage peak of the Pick makes it favorable for Major Wounds and stunning. That alone may justify the 50$ and .5 lbs cost for putting one on the back of an Axe.

While were visiting the changes of Low Tech, factors that could change my opinion of the pick:

1. Armor divisor on the pick
2. Split armor usefullness of 3e making a return as in 4/2/4 for Cut/Cr/Imp.
3. Revision to the 'Stuck' rule on B405.

Nymdok

p.s. Congrats! its been a while since I graduated, is 'decompress' still code for 'sober up and re-hydrate'? :)
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:12 AM   #86
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

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p.s. Congrats! its been a while since I graduated, is 'decompress' still code for 'sober up and re-hydrate'? :)
There was a day of that, but mostly it was "play videogames, update the resume, and don't study anything for a week"
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:40 AM   #87
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Default Re: [Melee] Pick V Axe

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post

Personally, I think an axe should do more damage to an unarmored human than a pick. I had a fellow Marine who put the point of a pickaxe through his foot. He was limping for a while, but eventually he was back to full duty. If he had done the same thing with an axe, there was a much greater chance of severing something permanently.
Well, via the GURPS rules, a Pick isn't going to do any real damage to a limb due to impaling having no wounding modifier vs. extremities.

Also, let's keep in mind that while a pick may punch a deep, broad wound channel(in the case of some) or a narrow deep channel, an axe is capable of inficting large wound channels and cleaving bones and flesh.
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