[Melee] Pick V Axe

[Nymdok]

EDIT: As I have interpreted the rules incorrectly, I must withdraw the following statement. As it turns out, the Pick is NOT better than the Axe. Im currently Fiddling with the Damage Curves to see if I can house rule a better Damge Set and Rule mechanic. Thanks to all those who participated in the Discussion.

Bottom Line On Top :
The Pick is a better Melee Weapon Than the Axe.

The Data can be found in this google Spreadsheet.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...-3MaC5bh2z_KzQ

Note the relevant data is in Axe and Pick starting about line 46. Pick 2, Pick 3 etc are me fiddling wiht the Damage Curves.

------On to the post-------

Ive been doing some thinking lately about why no one uses the pick inspired, in part, by this thread.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=33527

I've compared the two and will present my reults here.

Quick review:

Pick is SW+1 Imp on the way in, half that again on the way out.
Axe is SW +2 Cut

Both are single Handed and Unbalanced (Parry = 0U) .
Cost, Weight, and Min ST are comprable.

Methodology:
To compare them, We pit them against Equal DRs wielded By equal ST and see what the total damage done after applying wounding modifiers. For ease of calculation, Both weapons are assumed to be used at ST 10, which is the min for Pick and only one off Axe.

We calculate Damage as is normally done in Gurps, with the inclusion of the Pick rules on B405.

We assume that at ST 10 the Pick is removed 50% of the time, at ST 14 91% and at ST 18 98%.

Results:
As you can see in the sheet (Line 46), Pick trounces Axe handily at low ST vs unarmored opponents and it isnt until the HIGHER DRs (3-4+) that Axe catches up.

For Higher ST, there is no contest. At For 2d Swing (ST 14) DR 0 Axe is expected to Do 13.5 pts of damage a turn compared to Picks 23.3. At DR 7, its closer, but at 3.4 Axe to 4.5 Pick, Pick Still wins. At 3d Swing (ST 18) the difference is almost embarassing with axe bring in a respectable 18.7 at DR 0 but being dwarfed by Picks 34.3. At DR 7 its Axe 8.3 to Picks 13.6.

Analysis and Conclusion.
Pick Trumps Axe by merits of 2 mathematical multipliers. First, Although Axe has SW+2 to Picks SW+1, Picks Wounding modifier is a beefier 2 to Axes 1.5. In addition, Pick does half its final (after wounding) damge AGAIN when it is removed.

This ultimately leaves me with Several questions:

Why arent these all over evey Fanatsy/Midevil Campaign Everywhere?
DX/A and a 10 Min ST seems like a gimmie for Damage like this!

How popular were these weapons historically?

I was expecting the Axe to fare better against Unarmored Opponents, tie about DR 2-4 and Begin loosing from 5+. THis is NOT what I discovered. Should I expect an Axe to do more damage to an Unarmored/Lightly armored opponent? (It 'feels' right, but I have no logic to support it nor do I have any medical experience on which to base it.)

As was posted earlier, Ive been fiddling with giving it an Armor divisor of 2, and either Changing its wounding type to Pi or Pi + And/or scaling its Bonus from +1 to -2. Anyone tried this and got a 'better' curve?

A if you can balance an Axe for throwing, a Mace and of course a pick seem reasonable. If you throw a Pick, does Cr damge seem most reasonable, or is cutting the more accurate way to go(Under the assumption its effetively a tip slash)?

If you penetrate the dr on a shield hit (within the DB of the defenders block) is the Pick stuck? Does it work like the Hook technique?

Nymdok
Whew.....see what foolishness insomnia begets?

[chris1982]

We had these issues before in the forums.

The baseline is that what GURPS calls a pick seems to be a one handed warhammer that was usually used to be effective vs heavily armored foes.

So some people suggested letting it do cr damage but give it armor divisor 2 -what is not a bad solution.

The reason why I would not want to have the pick in rules as written is that it gets stuck quite easily. If the foe runs away or there is someone else I should be fighting or i have an extra attack i have a problem...

The really nice thing about an axe vs unarmored opponents is the ability to attack the limbs with e.g. a high chance of crippling the weapon arm.

But true, the pick is a powerful weapon (just the name is stupid imho).

[Icelander]

Wouldn't you hate it if Low-Tech made some minor, but vital, change that invalidated all your work on the spreadsheet?

;)

The reason the pick isn't used more is that getting stuck really sucks, especially for heroic PCs who expect to dispatch at least one foe per second.

With modest skill and a shield to take care of defensive problems, a pick is a quite viable weapon choice. But with enough skill to aim for limbs, unprotected faces or even eyes, more versatile weapons such as swords come into their own.

[Crakkerjakk]

Historically, axes were mostly used by people who couldn't afford anything better, with a few exceptions among a few elite units (Varangian Guard, etc) consisting mostly of a long-handled two handed version.

Picks were used by better equipped warriors as armor improved, as they did a very good job at penetrating both maille and plate.

Originally Posted by chris1982

The baseline is that what GURPS calls a pick seems to be a one handed warhammer that was usually used to be effective vs heavily armored foes.

<snip>

So some people suggested letting it do cr damage but give it armor divisor 2 -what is not a bad solution.

<snip>

But true, the pick is a powerful weapon (just the name is stupid imho).

Why would a weapon consisting of a spike perpendicular to it's handle be modeled with crushing damage? I think you can leave the pick without an armor divisor if you do the "all cutting weapons have an armor divisor of 0.5" houserule.

Why is "pick" a stupid name? What other weapon does it make one think of?

EDIT: From wiki. I think giving it an armor divisor of two and switching damage to pi+ might be a suitable fix.

[Witchking]

My first post up fighter in GURPS (1st ed) was a dwarf

I built to have ST 16...so I would be 5 over Picks Min ST of 11. Thus no reready time.

I didn't really have it get stuck on me too often. And Since Light Encumberence for ST 16 under 1st ed was 64 lbs..later in my career I carried the Pick. Mildly Enchanted Scale Mail (PD 4 DR 5) two Broadswords and about 8 throwing hatchets. Put me just at 63.5 lbs. So the few times the pick did get stuck I either FD a broadsword or went Close Cbt and used Karate.

I only wore scale because "standard" warrior armor in setting was Cuirbolli (pd/dr 2)...Plate was "theoretically" known to exist but was only used as ceremonial armor in a few courts. (Even with a 20+ Armoury skill I could only make Plate if I had a chance to examine a suit...In 5+ yrs never even saw one).

I moved away from the pick because it was overkill against Heavy Leather and I managed to find a few enchanted/fine broadswords over the years (never found a single axe/pick that was magicked.)

Certainly a good weapon...given the choice between it and an axe I would take pick.

Given the choice between pick and sword I would take the sword...unless cash was a concern.

Dave or

Hendel Demonslayer of Clan Groin (dont ask)

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Wouldn't you hate it if Low-Tech made some minor, but vital, change that invalidated all your work on the spreadsheet?

That's just cruel...

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Why is "pick" a stupid name? What other weapon does it make one think of?

Maybe thats just a language issue. For a "Pick" im thinking of tothpick, or lockpick... This weapon is called "Kriegshammer" in German - "Warhammer".

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegshammer

Btw in your Wikipedia article it says: "Its relative heaviness made it unwieldy and, thus, easily avoided. The injury caused by the weapon was also small and rarely immediately fatal."

Doesn't really imply "Impaling damage"

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Wouldn't you hate it if Low-Tech made some minor, but vital, change that invalidated all your work on the spreadsheet?

;)

In a word....YES.

Originally Posted by Icelander

The reason the pick isn't used more is that getting stuck really sucks, especially for heroic PCs who expect to dispatch at least one foe per second.

The fact that it gets stuck is something of a mixed blessing. In the RAW it almost seems like a free Hook or Grapple manuver with every successful hit.

In the event that your opponent doesnt move, you only have to beat your own strength which is normally 10 (50/50) and heroic PCs Im sure will have it higher. Also it is ready the turn it is removed (or did I read that wrong?)

At any rate, Drop and Fast draw seem like a great failsafe. At only 4 lbs, carrying two seems like an Easy fix.

Originally Posted by Icelander

With modest skill and a shield to take care of defensive problems, a pick is a quite viable weapon choice. But with enough skill to aim for limbs, unprotected faces or even eyes, more versatile weapons such as swords come into their own.

Althoguh I havent run the numbers, it seems that the swords major advantage here is its ability to parry on the same turn it attacks.

As its impaling, targeting the eyes and vitals is still a viable option.

For the limbs, the reduction to 1x multiplier is offset largely due to exit damage. I may run those numbers next :)

Nymdok

[vicky_molokh]

What is this 'minor' change?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by chris1982

Maybe thats just a language issue. For a "Pick" im thinking of tothpick, or lockpick... This weapon is called "Kriegshammer" in German - "Warhammer".

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegshammer

Btw in your Wikipedia article it says: "Its relative heaviness made it unwieldy and, thus, easily avoided. The injury caused by the weapon was also small and rarely immediately fatal."

Doesn't really imply "Impaling damage"

Pick brings to mind something spikey to me, like a pickaxe.

Yeah, I'm not really sure why there is an Impaling damage type. Whats the difference between Impaling and Pi++?