Servant Level WTF?

PenitentDemon · 12-08-2010, 08:39 AM

Just thought abaout it a bit... it says that a servamts resources level, Makes him easier to control... well heres a problem I noticed..

In particular... Heaven will likely have less trouble getting obedience from its servants then hell, beyond that... Im pretty Sure People serving Baal, or Asmoesdoes, just by what kinds of people they would generally be, will tend to be more obedient, then a servant of say Vaelfor Malefas.

Point is is their a point in a Servitor of baal, taking a Soldier or imp at a high resource level, when its practicaly a certainty, that if they disobey, he will destroy them.

Laurence, or Dominics Servitors, are only so much more lenient.

JCD · 12-08-2010, 12:41 PM

Not following your point. If you are saying that philosophicaly Valefor etc will not buy up the control aspect of a Servant, you are probably right (though I easily see a Servitor of Valefor having incriminating polaroids of someone useful 'in a safe place')

Lilim might feel the same way...but see no problem using geases to enforce obedience (they were perfectly free to turn down the favor...)

Angels are marginally less likely to ask servants to do things they have moral qualms at doing (But as 'A Bright Dream' showed, have NO problem forcing their Servants into doing moral things they don't want to do), but both sides in general are 'big picture' types and we know what THEY are like.

Azel · 12-08-2010, 01:22 PM

He who destroys his servants off hand will one day soon have to sweep the floors himself.

Servants are a resource. You buy this resource at a higher level to get penalties against their will, so they have less of an ability to resist your orders. These are the basic facts we all agree on.

Your question (as I believe I understand it) is, "why bother? Just threaten their very existence!"

Well, true, you could do that, but then at some point you'll have to chase them down and actually *do it*. It's time consuming and messy and well, the main key to holding power is conservation of resources. Getting your vengeance upon every disobedient gremlin is not exactly the best use of the powerful's time...

Threats are useful, but they only go so far. Sometimes you need another person to do something far more than they need to avoid your wrath. Sure, you could kill them if they say no, but then you're right back where you started from -- and without a servant as a resource. That's when it's easier to break their will. It avoids these little "conflicts of interest" in the future, (particularly when time is of the essence).

(Explanatory Aside: This is the principle of authority being more useful than overt displays of power. Further, delegated authority is useful because it does more than conserve your displays of power. It expands your sphere of influence almost exponentially, cuts down on micromanaging, and uses up displays of power from any potential upstarts. The only wrench in the machine is levels of obedience to authority. Thus, if you can have a few "aces up one's sleeve" against disobedience -- without having to resort to overt power -- all the better. You keep a resource AND get what you want.)

Andygal · 12-08-2010, 02:13 PM

Plus even if the death threats work, they **** people off. And if you **** people off enough, sooner or later they're going to stab you in the back, it's very difficult to actually cow people into permanent obedience with threats. They'll do what you want when you're watching them, but eventually they'll stab you in the back when you AREN'T watching them. With a Servant at a high resource level you can usually be assured they'll do what they are told without being hounded continuously.

Rocket Man · 12-08-2010, 04:11 PM

To paraphrase the idea from Machiavelli: It is good for a leader to be loved. It is good for a leader to be feared. But what a leader must never, ever be is hated.

Matthias Wasser · 12-08-2010, 05:10 PM

Servant levels aren't part of the diegetic world, but of the game's attempt to balance different character options. (Insert the obvious joke here.) If you have a Servant that's loyal because you threaten her at flaming swordpoint, she's loyal in practice, and is therefore priced at a high level.

JCD · 12-09-2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Servant levels aren't part of the diegetic world, but of the game's attempt to balance different character options. (Insert the obvious joke here.) If you have a Servant that's loyal because you threaten her at flaming swordpoint, she's loyal in practice, and is therefore priced at a high level.

That certainly is a good point. It doesn't matter how the Celestial holds control; it's just a matter that they ARE using control

Malakim/Calabim/Baal/Belial: Do it or I'll kill you.

Andrea/Lilim/Impudite: Do it or I'll leave you.

Mercurian: What would your Mom think?

Shedim/Kyriotate: Do it or I'll make you.

Belseraph: Do it or I'll call the cops about that cookie you stole when you were 8 and they will arrest you forever.

Elohim: It will look good on your permanent record.

Seraph: Just Do It!

Ofanim: Does it himself because a human is too slow...

Djinn: Never cared in the first place if you did it or not.

Habbalah: Do it or you'll wish you were dead

Jason · 12-09-2010, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Servant levels aren't part of the diegetic world, but of the game's attempt to balance different character options. (Insert the obvious joke here.) If you have a Servant that's loyal because you threaten her at flaming swordpoint, she's loyal in practice, and is therefore priced at a high level.

Hmm ... not sure this is accurate. Liber Servitorum goes to some length to make a distinction between the way you treat your Servant and the level of the Servant. The way the rules explain it, Servant level measures a Symphonic connection, not a social connection/obligation.

It's very much like having a corporeal artifact at a high level. In the case of the artifact, the stronger Symphonic connection means that you can detect the artifact's whereabouts more reliably. The level of a Servant means that you can resort to supernatural means to get the Servant to do what you want. You can also threaten, bribe, cajole, etc., but all this is entirely separate from Servant level.

JCD · 12-09-2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

Hmm ... not sure this is accurate. Liber Servitorum goes to some length to make a distinction between the way you treat your Servant and the level of the Servant. The way the rules explain it, Servant level measures a Symphonic connection, not a social connection/obligation.

It's very much like having a corporeal artifact at a high level. In the case of the artifact, the stronger Symphonic connection means that you can detect the artifact's whereabouts more reliably. The level of a Servant means that you can resort to supernatural means to get the Servant to do what you want. You can also threaten, bribe, cajole, etc., but all this is entirely separate from Servant level.

It's a dual system with Servants.

Going by Core (the book I have right now) it has Class and Level. I agree with you that the Level is characterized as Control but unless LS changed things, it seems to be focused on how well you can get inside the Servant's head.

To use the example of Father Mario from the Core book, maybe Braxious has forced his Will upon Mario supernaturally (and that certainly IS a method of control). But it's equally possible that Braxious knows Mario's a coward, or that he knows about his interestingly dressed Barbie doll collection, or that Braxious knows where Maria his crippled sister lives.

One thing I do agree on is that the new factor of resisting other Celestials smacks of Supernatural influence. But it could also be that because the Celestial knows where the mortal lives mentally, and this bolsters his will in the normal manner.

Quote:

Mario had a collection of Boy's Life magazines, for example. Braxious added some DNA and presto, blackmail material. Because he is a very proud individual who loves his parishioners, he REALLY doesn't want this to come out.

Natalie, Impudite of Malphas, tries to use Imbroglio on Mario to cause a rift with Braxious. Because of his fear of exposure if he betrays the demon (and not for any supernatural reason), he gets to bolster his will by +5 or so to resist.

This is another interpretation of how the mechanic works. It doesn't have to be blackmail. It could be greed, respect or love!

YMMV

Azel · 12-10-2010, 01:21 PM

Liber Servitorum, 1st ed. 1999, Chapter - Servants:

Class, p119. "A servant's Class is a measure of how useful and powerful it is."

Level, p119. "A servant's Level as a Resource is a measure of how much control its master has over it. This is the Symphonic connection that makes a servant different from a mere minion -- a minion is always a free agent, but a servant can literally be forced to act against its will."

This "Level as a resource" does not have to do with cajoling or threats which you can attempt with any minion (or even any NPC). It has directly to do with the mechanic of breaking down the servants will in order to obey. In clarification, LS: Servants p116:

"It is a real Symphonic connection, however; more than friendship, loyalty, domination, admiration, fear, or compulsion (any of which may also be present in the relationship). ... Voluntarily or not, a servant's will is suborned. His master can make him do things, and he knows it."

So, in summary, Class is servant's active value -- Level is servant's symphonically acknowledged will penalty to resist orders. It's the ace up one's sleeve to command obedience just in case regular authority/fear is not enough. There's not much to really role play, except a little eye squinty and a sigh of defeat, just like a Will War or something. But just to be clear, buying up servant obedience is *not* a bad idea at all.

12-08-2010, 08:39 AM	#1
PenitentDemon Join Date: Aug 2008	Servant Level WTF? Just thought abaout it a bit... it says that a servamts resources level, Makes him easier to control... well heres a problem I noticed.. In particular... Heaven will likely have less trouble getting obedience from its servants then hell, beyond that... Im pretty Sure People serving Baal, or Asmoesdoes, just by what kinds of people they would generally be, will tend to be more obedient, then a servant of say Vaelfor Malefas. Point is is their a point in a Servitor of baal, taking a Soldier or imp at a high resource level, when its practicaly a certainty, that if they disobey, he will destroy them. Laurence, or Dominics Servitors, are only so much more lenient.

12-08-2010, 12:41 PM	#2
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Servant Level WTF? Not following your point. If you are saying that philosophicaly Valefor etc will not buy up the control aspect of a Servant, you are probably right (though I easily see a Servitor of Valefor having incriminating polaroids of someone useful 'in a safe place') Lilim might feel the same way...but see no problem using geases to enforce obedience (they were perfectly free to turn down the favor...) Angels are marginally less likely to ask servants to do things they have moral qualms at doing (But as 'A Bright Dream' showed, have NO problem forcing their Servants into doing moral things they don't want to do), but both sides in general are 'big picture' types and we know what THEY are like.

12-08-2010, 01:22 PM	#3
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: Servant Level WTF? He who destroys his servants off hand will one day soon have to sweep the floors himself. Servants are a resource. You buy this resource at a higher level to get penalties against their will, so they have less of an ability to resist your orders. These are the basic facts we all agree on. Your question (as I believe I understand it) is, "why bother? Just threaten their very existence!" Well, true, you could do that, but then at some point you'll have to chase them down and actually do it. It's time consuming and messy and well, the main key to holding power is conservation of resources. Getting your vengeance upon every disobedient gremlin is not exactly the best use of the powerful's time... Threats are useful, but they only go so far. Sometimes you need another person to do something far more than they need to avoid your wrath. Sure, you could kill them if they say no, but then you're right back where you started from -- and without a servant as a resource. That's when it's easier to break their will. It avoids these little "conflicts of interest" in the future, (particularly when time is of the essence). (Explanatory Aside: This is the principle of authority being more useful than overt displays of power. Further, delegated authority is useful because it does more than conserve your displays of power. It expands your sphere of influence almost exponentially, cuts down on micromanaging, and uses up displays of power from any potential upstarts. The only wrench in the machine is levels of obedience to authority. Thus, if you can have a few "aces up one's sleeve" against disobedience -- without having to resort to overt power -- all the better. You keep a resource AND get what you want.)

12-08-2010, 02:13 PM	#4
Andygal Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Canada	Re: Servant Level WTF? Plus even if the death threats work, they ** people off. And if you ** people off enough, sooner or later they're going to stab you in the back, it's very difficult to actually cow people into permanent obedience with threats. They'll do what you want when you're watching them, but eventually they'll stab you in the back when you AREN'T watching them. With a Servant at a high resource level you can usually be assured they'll do what they are told without being hounded continuously. __________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand trinary, those who don't, and those who are sick to death of this darn joke.

12-08-2010, 04:11 PM	#5
Rocket Man Petitioner: Word of IN Filk Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Longmont, CO	Re: Servant Level WTF? To paraphrase the idea from Machiavelli: It is good for a leader to be loved. It is good for a leader to be feared. But what a leader must never, ever be is hated. __________________ “It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"

12-08-2010, 05:10 PM	#6
Matthias Wasser Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Boston	Re: Servant Level WTF? Servant levels aren't part of the diegetic world, but of the game's attempt to balance different character options. (Insert the obvious joke here.) If you have a Servant that's loyal because you threaten her at flaming swordpoint, she's loyal in practice, and is therefore priced at a high level.

12-10-2010, 01:21 PM	#10
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: Servant Level WTF? Liber Servitorum, 1st ed. 1999, Chapter - Servants: Class, p119. "A servant's Class is a measure of how useful and powerful it is." Level, p119. "A servant's Level as a Resource is a measure of how much control its master has over it. This is the Symphonic connection that makes a servant different from a mere minion -- a minion is always a free agent, but a servant can literally be forced to act against its will." This "Level as a resource" does not have to do with cajoling or threats which you can attempt with any minion (or even any NPC). It has directly to do with the mechanic of breaking down the servants will in order to obey. In clarification, LS: Servants p116: "It is a real Symphonic connection, however; more than friendship, loyalty, domination, admiration, fear, or compulsion (any of which may also be present in the relationship). ... Voluntarily or not, a servant's will is suborned. His master can make him do things, and he knows it." So, in summary, Class is servant's active value -- Level is servant's symphonically acknowledged will penalty to resist orders. It's the ace up one's sleeve to command obedience just in case regular authority/fear is not enough. There's not much to really role play, except a little eye squinty and a sigh of defeat, just like a Will War or something. But just to be clear, buying up servant obedience is not a bad idea at all.