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Old 03-20-2018, 08:05 PM   #1
Algarik
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
Default System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Warning this gonna probably come off as a rant.

In the last couple years I've always juggled between d20 (Mainly Pathfinder) and gurps, switching between the two when i get sick of a system and then coming back to that one when i get tired of the other. I don't have any problem with playing in both, but when i'm the Game master something always bother me and i end up dropping the game to see if the neighbors grass is greener.

What i like about D20:
- It's really easy for me to prepare, i know most of it's systems by hearth.
- The tactical side of combat is actually really fun and work really well with miniatures and a battle map.

My problems with D20:
- The realism level is too low; There's some thing that make sense, and it's not completely wacky, but sometimes it get ridiculous.
- The lack of support for out of combat option and the futility of building character for something else than combat. I know it's GM dependent, but if you're playing a D20 games, chances are it's gonna be at least 75% combat and 25% the rest.
- Vancian magic system can be fun, but it get tiring after a while.
- The fact that d20 games are generally sold as heroic/fantasy game style start as gritty fantasy, then goes to heroic fantasy and finally switch into in Supers around lvl 10-12.
- The mental gymnastic i got to do to try keeping my world consistent when heroes goes from having difficulty killing 2 goblin and are expected to kill Dragon as tall as 2 building with a 3 foot magical Adamentium stick.

What i like about gurps:
- It's mostly realistic without getting too much in the way of playability.
- Although the game combat system is more than complete, the game itself isn't specifically made for combat and i love the fact that there's a hell lot of rule to play with to make every kind of games you want.
- It's easier to improvise on the fly in gurps than it is in D20. If i suddenly need an npc with skill X, i can just improvise it quickly. In D20, that's harder, because of the way npcs works if you wanna stay consistent with the rule you got to follow some pattern.
- There's no class.
- The system is versatile.


What i dislike about Gurps:
- I generally have to do all the work and it takes a lot of preparation times. There's no true bestiaries, even thought i found some online, it's nothing compared to d20 games.
- I feel that the game is too human-centric. Monsters are really, really hard to balance. Either they die too quickly or player get obliterated.
- The one second rounds. I've tried really, really hard to make combat take longer by encouraging player to actually role play in combat ,but even then i rarely get past the 8 second combat. Character move way too fast and there reaction time is a bit too fast.
- I the end i feel like Gurps is really good, but i always get some grip with some rule and i end up having to write my own house rule, which take times.
- Guns damage. I get it guns are better than swords, and they should be, but i never found any support for mixing both in an effective way. (Maybe i'm just bad at searching).

I'll agree that i'm generally more harsh with gurps than i am with d20 games, probably because gurps is so close to being my perfect system.

Recently I've been tinkering with the idea of switching my Starfinder game to Gurps, because i would want for the game to be a bit more realistic. Although i'm not sure if i should given all the things i dislike about Gurps, and i don't want to invest time in effort for nothing again.

Any Advices, solutions, counter arguments or insults?

Last edited by Algarik; 03-20-2018 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:07 PM   #2
trooper6
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Have you thought about trying a totally different system for a while? Something in a really different paradigm? Something rules light and Narrativist? Something like FATE, or Ashen Stars (GUMSHOE), or something Powered By The Apocalypse? You know...something to *really* put you in a different space before you decide what you want to do with regard to GURPS vs. d20?
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:35 PM   #3
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
....The one second rounds. I've tried really, really hard to make combat take longer by encouraging player to actually role play in combat ,but even then i rarely get past the 8 second combat. Character move way too fast and there reaction time is a bit too fast.....
There's an article by Chris W. McCubbin that deals with this. By real-world examples, one weapon exchange (not including semi- and automatic weapons) per second is pretty realistic (I agree with Chris that it fits watching SCA combat). Where it isn't realistic is not having lulls between attacks, which real combat has. That gives the chance to roleplay and for help to arrive.

The article was written for 3rd edition, but it works equally well for 4th.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...ingCombat.html
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:46 PM   #4
Algarik
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Well, yes and no. I've tried other systems as player but never as a GM. I've tried Shadowrun and i'm gonna try L5R soon. Both system look rather nice. L5R look rather simple et Shadowrun isn't that bad. Problem is, those two system comes with their own setting and i'm not really in the mood for DMing any of those two.

There's also the problem that as a player i like trying new systems, as a GM less so. I'm a bit obsessive when it come to rule knowledge and game building and minor details can get in my way really quickly. Things as silly as missing motivation for an enemy to be there can distract me for a long time until i find the right answer. (I know it got nothing to do with systems, but it just show how obsessive i can be)

I'll also acknowledge that i can be quite pessimistic and critic about things. and if something start bothering me it can ruin the whole thing pretty quickly even if 99% of the stuff works.

About rule weight, i generally like having quite a lot of rule i'm not fond of the feeling of arbitrariness with rule light system. I don't know though, maybe it could be a good idea to take some space between those two systems. Thanks for the advice, i'll give it a look. :)

Edit(The reply literally just arrived on my side):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
There's an article by Chris W. McCubbin that deals with this. By real-world examples, one weapon exchange (not including semi- and automatic weapons) per second is pretty realistic (I agree with Chris that it fits watching SCA combat). Where it isn't realistic is not having lulls between attacks, which real combat has. That gives the chance to roleplay and for help to arrive.

The article was written for 3rd edition, but it works equally well for 4th.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...ingCombat.html
Oh thanks a lot i'll defenitely read that!
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:32 PM   #5
Refplace
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Using The Last Gasp you can get lulls in combat.
The gun vs. sword issue is because GURPS starts as a realitic system.
You have to do something cinematic or unrealitic like say the personal forcefields in Dune to give an edge to swords. Its doable but extra work.
Check out this page for a list of adventures and bestiaries. Might be out of date.
http://refplace.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_47.html
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:16 AM   #6
Algarik
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Using The Last Gasp you can get lulls in combat.
The gun vs. sword issue is because GURPS starts as a realitic system.
You have to do something cinematic or unrealitic like say the personal forcefields in Dune to give an edge to swords. Its doable but extra work.
Check out this page for a list of adventures and bestiaries. Might be out of date.
http://refplace.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_47.html
Thanks for the blog, that will probably help in the future!

About the Sword and the gun issues, the force field look like a good idea for dealing with guns for humanoid, although i have no idea how i would stat it, i'd probably have to do some math to get something balanced, but for big savage creatures it's another problem, either they get so much DR that nothing beside rifle or bigger stuff will hurt them or they don't have enough DR and rifle can easily obliterate them, i feel like the line is really thin.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:36 AM   #7
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
- I feel that the game is too human-centric. Monsters are really, really hard to balance. Either they die too quickly or player get obliterated.
Some tips on this point:
First, go more for "strong, slow" monsters, rather that "skilled". If a beast has ST 20 but only 11 or 12 in Brawling skill, then it's a legitimate threat if it lands a hit, but most of its hits won't land, and it won't have the skill to reduce defenses very effectively either. Calibrate this so a slightly-above-average hit from the monster will inflict a major wound on the toughest PC (after accounting for armor), and you've got something that will worry the party, without usually being so deadly that it will automatically kill the weaker PCs (unless there's a really huge gap in surviveability advantages, but that usually comes with an explicit assumption that the squishy PCs shouldn't be in melee range anyway).

Second, pour even more HP on than ST. 50% higher than the creature's ST is a good rule of thumb, I find. That will give it the endurance to survive long enough to make a few swipes, even if it doesn't land any. However, either don't make it fight to the death, or employ the mook rules, and have it automatically fail any consciousness or death check, because wearing such a tough monster all the way down to -5XHP is just tedious.

Third, give it some defensive advantages of its own, besides HP. DR is the obvious one, here - again, calibrate this to your PCs. I find that enough DR to cut out about half the hardest-hitting PC's average damage is good for most monsters, upping that to enough to cancel their whole average damage for monsters designed to be very tough. Also on the DR front, don't be afraid to buff up some of the vulnerable spots a bit! Give it extra DR on the vitals, for example. Besides DR, another good trait for really large creatures is Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction). (If you don't know what that is, it's from Powers, and it basically divides all injury that gets past DR by some fraction.) I like to give very large monsters IT: DR at the 1/2 level or better, only against small weapons, where "small" is defined by exactly how much larger the creature is than the PCs. This represents things like a dagger just not being able to penetrate deeply enough into a giant's skin to do significant damage.

Fourth, and kind of conversely to the points above, don't be afraid to give your beasts exploitable weaknesses, too. For example, if they have a bunch of DR, allow targeting chinks in their armor, and maybe even put in a few chinks that have even more reduced DR, or even no DR, for an additional penalty. Or give them vulnerability to special attacks, like fire or cold. This rewards players who have invested heavily in their skills (either weapon skills to take advantage of vulnerabilities with high penalties to target, or knowledge skills to know about esoteric weaknesses), and gives the less-tanky characters things to do while the toughest PCs go toe-to-toe with the beasts.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:51 AM   #8
Refplace
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

All Kellys advice was great and I like IT:DR for a lot of things. DR alone against powerful attacks means invulnerability or a red mist. IT:DR makes for better and more dramatic fight.
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My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:02 AM   #9
Magic_Octopus
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
- Guns damage. I get it guns are better than swords, and they should be, but i never found any support for mixing both in an effective way. (Maybe i'm just bad at searching).
The same Pyramid issue that has the Last Gasp rules has rules for Survivable Guns. That might be of interest to you.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:21 AM   #10
Lord Azagthoth
 
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Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

In my system I have replaced FP (because I use FP for Force Points) with 4 levels of mental fatigue and physical fatigue. Everytime you would otherwise spend a FP, you now roll against HT (with each additional FP spend otherwise is now a penalty to HT). Failure means you get a level of mental or physical fatigue (named these Weary, Tired, Very Tired, and Exhausted and each of them has different penatlies to attributes.) On a crit failure, you overexcerted yourself, gassed yourself out, etc.

I was also switching from D20 Star Wars to GURPS to WEG D6 back and forth, and now there is also the FFG Star Wars system....

But for the roleplying part, GURPS is the best. The others are mostly concentrated on combat
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