Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2012, 10:02 AM   #101
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
...
I think a liberal application of familiarity penalties to defaults will sharply cut-down on the cinematic ubercompetence of characters with Attributes even slightly above the norm and if GMs link the appropriateness of a character having a given familiarity with his number of points in the skill*, players have a good reason to sometimes opt for an experienced, well-trained and educated character over a naturally gifted one.
...
That would defeat nearly the whole purpose of defaults, that is to allow most people to have at least a chance to perform things without skill.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 10:14 AM   #102
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Pyramid #3/44, Alternate GURPS II.
Thanks. I have to buy it. For that reason and several other ones...
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 10:17 AM   #103
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Thanks. I have to buy it. For that reason and several other ones...
Modesty aside, both Alternate GURPS issues were very strong. #34 and #44.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 10:36 AM   #104
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Modesty aside, both Alternate GURPS issues were very strong. #34 and #44.
Yes. I really have to buy both. And I'm even sure that some of these rules will become the main rules in a future (an as far as possible future) fifth edition.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:02 PM   #105
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
That would defeat nearly the whole purpose of defaults, that is to allow most people to have at least a chance to perform things without skill.
Why?

If the given task is something that he should realistically have a chance of performing without skill, the odds are pretty good that it's either very easy (high positive TDM), something that the character is already familiar with, even if he lacks skill, or both.

Indeed, I'd say that most Driving instruction is actually not enough to give a point in Driving. Even the Dabbler Perk might require a bit more than a couple of lessons and a few afternoons of applying them. But if we say that a brand-new driver spent his minimal driving education obtaining a familiarity with the basic tools and tasks he's most likely to require, he not only has a decent chance of successfully driving under favourable circumstances, but we also have a way to distinguish him from someone whose default comes from watching cars on TV.

Most people have tried doing stuff that requires a skill to do well, but they didn't pick up a point in the skill. That gives a default and it might be enough to avoid unfamiliarity penalties, if what they need to do isn't too far away from what they tried before. But defaults that don't come from actual experience, but simply from knowing that a given skill exists*, well, honestly, they probably should give a very poor chance of success at a difficult task, under pressure.

*This extreme example of what defaults can represent is of course more-or-less directly from the Basic Set.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:04 PM   #106
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Shooter A and Shooter B both have DX 10. Shooter A has seen guns used in movies (Default), Shooter B has practiced a bit with his uncles AR-15 (1 point in Guns (Rifle)). Give them each an AI AWM (different action, chambering, and mount from the AR-15), and Shooter A is better for his lack of practice than Shooter B. Unless there is a rule that familiarity penalties can't lower skill below default.
I just assumed that any GM that wasn't either wilfully ignorant or actively malicious would apply such a rule. It's nowhere stated explicitly, but neither is the immunity to familiarity penalties that not having a skill apparently grants.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:17 PM   #107
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Why?

If the given task is something that he should realistically have a chance of performing without skill, the odds are pretty good that it's either very easy (high positive TDM), something that the character is already familiar with, even if he lacks skill, or both.
I have to admit that I agree with Icelander here.

I learned to use pistols during army (national service) with only one weapon: the PA 9mm. But I did not learn to use it enough to have one point in the skill. I barely shot 100 ammunitions, at maximum, on a cardboard target and in the best possible conditions... And that's all! So, even if the study rules are designed for learning skill during the game (and not for reference during character creation) we are still far, very far from 200 hours of training with a master...

A question rises then: why would I have no penalty at all if I tried to use another kind of pistol (a .45, for instance) while a master marksman would have the quite high -3? It is not really fair.

Last edited by Gollum; 12-12-2012 at 12:34 PM.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #108
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
Nope. Check page 350.

It makes sense, to do realistically would be a pain in the ass, but they are still off.
I guess the rule I was thinking of is only in THS.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #109
coyote6
 
coyote6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Salinas, CA
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
A question rises then: why would I have no penalty at all if I tried to use another kind of pistol (a .45, for instance) while a master marksman would have the quite high -3? It is not really fair.
It's only -2 for 9mm to .45.

However, even so, the familiarity penalties are too high, IMO. If going from a pistol to a light machine gun is a -2 default, going from .45 to .40 shouldn't be that big a deal. I would halve them.

But I am a heretic that thinks 4e has too many skills as it is. :)
__________________
- Bob
GMing GURPS 4e, Shadowrun 5e, M&M 2e
coyote6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:53 PM   #110
Fwibos
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Default Re: What's with the modesty about stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCB View Post
Again, descriptive not prescriptive.

What a doctor does every day has an enormous amount of training and experience behind it; what someone in a call centre does every day typically has minimal training and relatively short-term experience. Suggesting that they both have skill 12 because "it's what they do every day" is silly.

I strongly suspect Kromm was giving a rough rule of thumb for "average folks", and did not intend for the wide range of human competences to be crammed down into that average.

Assumption: Real-World. This does not hold for games outside that

And yet, Tactical Shooting describes a well-trained, regularly vetted and tested sniper as having a skill of 15. The best shooters in the world have a 16. You average beat cop isn't likely to have more than a 10.

And why is that silly? A Professional Chemist, Doctor, or Call Center tech all have their skills at about 12. That's what professional means. the fact that being a doctor is harder than being a Call Center Jerk is covered under skill difficulty levels.

Assume IQ 10:
Call Center professional - Computer Operation -10 [1], Diplomacy-9[1], Fast-Talk-9 [1], Pro Skill: Call Center - 12 [8]*, Administration -9 [1] = 12 points

Chemist - Chemistry-12 [12]*, Administration -9 [1], Secondary skill related to job: (Mathematics, Biology, Metallurgy, or Pharmacy) -10 [4], = 17 poiints

Doctor: Physician-12 [12]*, First Aid-12, Surgery-8 [1], Diagnosis-12 [8]*,
Physiology -11 [8] = 29 points

Surgeon Surgury-12 [16]*, Physician-9 [2]. First Aid -11, Physiology -11 [4], Diagnosis-10 [4] = 30 points

* Primary skills used.

It takes nearly twice the number of points to become a pro doctor as a pro chemist. All of them have 12s. I did not add optional specialties - a surgeon would have one, in all likelihood.

This is why a doctor spends 8 years in school, that and the fact that while Failing a Pro Skill: Call Center default is embarassing and may anger somone, failing a physician of surgery roll can kill someone

The elegance is that an IQ 11 person learns much faster than an IQ 10 person - they get to professional level quicker. Same with someone with Talent - they breeze through med school, if they are a lsacker, then they have the same professional skill. If they buckle down, they become best in field.

I will, however, add, that subjective level is also a distinction worth knowing.

IQ + 2 and IQ +4 may both equal 12, but IQ+4 has a lot more experience.
__________________
Just Bought: Succesful Job Search!
Currently Buying off: Fat *Sigh* and Poverty.
Number of signatures inspired: 1
Word of God and Word of Kromm are pretty much the same thing in my book
Fwibos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attributes, stats

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.