[Sorcery] Handling Specialists

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Would this break the game too badly? Yes, it's obviously a departure from RAW (as I'm letting abilities with a higher cost than the base one benefit from the 1/5 cost), but I feel it's appropriate in this case.

The problem is that this is basically a free disadvantage -- if you have a 60 point ability you want, you can take Sorcery 6, Limited [42] and Alternate Ability [12], and then never use the sorcery -- all you've done is bought a 60 point ability for 54 points.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by weby

Being a specialist is a limitation not an enchantment to sorcery. Limitations should limit you not enhance you. Being able to have higher point cost abilities as alternate abilities would be an enchantment.

As I noted, this is breaking from the RAW way Alternate Abilities works. I see this as being like Lifting ST 10 (Only at Night -20%) [24]. That lets a character with nominal ST 10 have a Basic Lift of 80 lb, despite having only spent enough points to have a Basic Lift of 65 lb, but only between sunset and sunrise. By the same token, my suggestion means a character with Sorcery 9 (Earth College Only -40%) [60] can have a Known Spell that requires Sorcery 9, despite having only spent enough points to have Known Spells that require Sorcery 5, but only if these Known Spells are part of the Earth college.

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that this is basically a free disadvantage -- if you have a 60 point ability you want, you can take Sorcery 6, Limited [42] and Alternate Ability [12], and then never use the sorcery -- all you've done is bought a 60 point ability for 54 points.

This is something I didn't even consider. Perhaps requiring that the total price not be less than the cost of the highest level spell might be sufficient to avoid this?

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by weby

Being a specialist is a limitation not an enchantment to sorcery. Limitations should limit you not enhance you. Being able to have higher point cost abilities as alternate abilities would be an enchantment.

The limitation intended is rather major: you only have access to a single college.

The limitation received is: you only have access to a single college and have a lower maximum power to known spells per level.

I think the problem is that, in GURPS, limitations are designed to weaken your abilities in exchange for decreasing their cost. The power of sorcery is based on its cost, if you weaken it as normal you decreases its cost, weakening it further. If you buy it back to full power, you are not getting anything for the limitation except becoming weaker.

Example:
Sorcery 5 [50] can learn any spell up to 50 points, improvise up to 5 points.
Sorcery 8 (Earth Only) [48] can learn only earth spells up to 48 points, improvise earth spells up to 8 points.

So, at base, in exchange for bring able to only cast earth spells you can improvise 3 more points and get 4% off the cost. That 4% off also decreases your power slightly though, so its a net loss in power, points, etc. If there is no noteworthy benefit to limiting Sorcery, isn't that kind of a problem?

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

As I noted, this is breaking from the RAW way Alternate Abilities works. I see this as being like Lifting ST 10 (Only at Night -20%) [24]. That lets a character with nominal ST 10 have a Basic Lift of 80 lb, despite having only spent enough points to have a Basic Lift of 65 lb, but only between sunset and sunrise. By the same token, my suggestion means a character with Sorcery 9 (Earth College Only -40%) [60] can have a Known Spell that requires Sorcery 9, despite having only spent enough points to have Known Spells that require Sorcery 5, but only if these Known Spells are part of the Earth college.

Edit: sorry, I miss read.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

This is something I didn't even consider. Perhaps requiring that the total price not be less than the cost of the highest level spell might be sufficient to avoid this?

The entire way AAs are structured could probably do with some adjustment, but the key thing is that alternate abilities are already specializations: you are specialized in doing the abilities you've purchased. If you want to encourage Theme builds, I suggest looking at Power Talents.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The entire way AAs are structured could probably do with some adjustment, but the key thing is that alternate abilities are already specializations: you are specialized in doing the abilities you've purchased. If you want to encourage Theme builds, I suggest looking at Power Talents.

Sorcery has a Sorcery Talent, which is typically [10]/level, but drops to [5]/level if you have limited the spells your Sorcery has access to. As I noted previously, however, even if we assume this difference is sufficient to properly differentiate between generalists and specialists, we still have the issue between an Elementalist (Earth, Water, Air, and Fire Colleges Only) and a Geomancer (Earth College Only). Allowing for a lesser cost for the Talent might be appropriate, but that's debatable (Power Talents are typically [5]/level, regardless of scope; normal Sorcery Talent is probably [10]/level because unlimited sorcery has such a massive scope compared to any of the limited college versions).

However, as I noted above, the primary purpose - as I see it - of the Sorcery trait is to allow you to buy Known Spells, which is wrecked by applying Limitations.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

So, at base, in exchange for bring able to only cast earth spells you can improvise 3 more points and get 4% off the cost. That 4% off also decreases your power slightly though, so its a net loss in power, points, etc. If there is no noteworthy benefit to limiting Sorcery, isn't that kind of a problem?

No. A limitation isn't there to provide a benefit.

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by Anders

No. A limitation isn't there to provide a benefit.

Maybe not, but in almost all cases it does. It decreases the cost of the ability. I cannot think of another example where limitations can be applied and not decrease the cost of the ability. Weakening your character with no benefit may make sense with the story or characterization, but not from the game perspective.

Technically, this does decrease the price of the ability, but it does not practically decrease its cost. I suppose this is a lot like adding limitations to an ability already at -80%. While some GMs and players would advise to do it for characters the limitation makes sense for the fluff, I and many others will either add more enhancements or remove limitations.

EDIT: Actually, if limitations aren't there to provide a benefit, why do they all provide a benefit (cost reduction)?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

However, as I noted above, the primary purpose - as I see it - of the Sorcery trait is to allow you to buy Known Spells, which is wrecked by applying Limitations.

It would be legal under GURPS RAW (though if the GM is using Sorcery, he may be applying limitations) to simply buy Known Spells without having any Sorcery at all, or to have Sorcery not be your most expensive ability. AA is just "full cost for the most expensive ability, 1/5 cost for the rest".

Improvised Magic (Earth Only) is more limited than Improvised Magic (anything), and therefore gets a cost discount. Permeation (Earth), when cast by an Earth mage, is no more limited than Permeation (Earth), when cast by any other sort of mage, and thus gains no discount.

[weby]

Originally Posted by Varyon

However, as I noted above, the primary purpose - as I see it - of the Sorcery trait is to allow you to buy Known Spells, which is wrecked by applying Limitations.

Well, that might be your problem then. The primary purpose of sorcery is to have a base ability that you then buy other things from as alternate abilities. Basically the rules try to hide the complexity of alternate abilities. The actual ability is also meant to be useful in allowing the easy use of "cantrips".

If you follow GURPS RAW for alternate abilities then you always pay full price for the highest and 1/5 for rest. Thus following RAW it it is perfectly fine for an earth power user to buy say Flesh to Stone as primary ability at full cost and then other abilities, including a modular ability as alternate powers to it.

The reasons why Sorcery does not allow that are really two, with the simplicity being the main reason, but there is also a lesser thing about "you need to be level X to do Y" as some sort of factor to give players and GMs feel for what powers to expect from what "level" or sorcerers. Neither of those considerations are base rules as far as alternate abilities go, they are "campaign switches" that the GM is free to discard without much loss.

So in short: There is nothing unbalancing with buying Flesh to Stone for 61 points and then buying sorcery(limited earth) level 5 for 8 points(36/5).