New Reality Seeds

[Astromancer]

Try this alternate for territorial expansion. According to Jonathan Israel the key US general officers on the Canadian front, both Van Rensselaers wanted the Brits to win in order to crush democracy in America. These particular Van Rensselaers wanted America to be an oligarchical Republic, not a British colony, but saw a British victory as a way to permanently crush America's democratic tendencies.

At the same time, the Canadians were in revolt against England and wanted to join the USA. It was mainly the French, Scots, and Irish, in the revolt, but a large portion of the English settlers also wanted to join the USA. That's why so much of this period is down played in Canadian history books.

So expose Stephen Van Rensselaer and his cousin and hook up the Americans and the Canadian rebels and Canada might become part of the USA.

What fun is that you ask? If Britain was kicked out of Eastern North America, they'd massively redouble their attempts to hold large chunks of Western North America. Historically Britain wanted both the Oregon territory and California, badly. In a world where the Brits didn't just smack the USA around and leave without winning in 1815, but instead actually lost, at the same time the triumphed over Napoleon, the Brits would want payback.

You could play this several ways. Have the Brits simply renew the war after Castlereagh's death. Castlereagh was the key figure in the British government who understood why Britain wanted to prevent too much bad blood with America, once he was gone, the others weren't as shrewd. A British invasion of North America would have been tricky, especially with an unstable Europe at Britain's back wanting to take them down a few pegs.

You could simply allow British bases on the West coast and the importation of Sikh troops for a new style in "Indian" fighting. Maybe Sikh/Indian alliances backed by British Arms and money.

There are many more spins but I'm tired now.

[Apollonian]

That War of 1812 divergence is a big one. Canadian integration into the US shakes up the North-South power balance - what would the new power blocs look like?

I also like the idea of an Anglo-American Great Game between the West and the Mississippi. You can bring Mexico into it, Russia through Alaska, and maybe that kind of struggle gives the Native American tribes space to resist colonization. Whatever you go with, it's plenty of space for adventurous PCs to get in trouble.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

That War of 1812 divergence is a big one. Canadian integration into the US shakes up the North-South power balance - what would the new power blocs look like?

I also like the idea of an Anglo-American Great Game between the West and the Mississippi. You can bring Mexico into it, Russia through Alaska, and maybe that kind of struggle gives the Native American tribes space to resist colonization. Whatever you go with, it's plenty of space for adventurous PCs to get in trouble.

KWEL!! Maybe Kipling would set Kim in Arizona.

[fchase8]

If the British lost Canada, how would they exert influence or territorial gains over western North America? The British would have no base from which to operate, no way to reach Oregon & California (save the very long way around through the Pacific).

America taking over Canada was a/the major divergence point in the Draka series.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by fchase8

If the British lost Canada, how would they exert influence or territorial gains over western North America? The British would have no base from which to operate, no way to reach Oregon & California (save the very long way around through the Pacific).

America taking over Canada was a/the major divergence point in the Draka series.

I suppose it depends on just how much of British America becomes part of the US. If I were running it, I'd also consider the effect of this loss on the Napoleonic Wars.

However, the UK has already established a foothold on the west coast, at the mouth of the Columbia; at the outbreak of the war, the American traders at Fort Astoria had decided to sell out to the Hudson Bay Company rather than have their assets seized with no recompense by an expected British warship. Slightly later in OTL, HBC operations west of the Rockies became supplied primarily via the Columbia. So the UK could support a colony there by sea, while US interference would primarily be overland.

In the event of losing most if not all of the eastern colonies, I can see the UK doubling down on the Oregon Territory. (I suspect they might be able to hold onto the mostly-empty Prince Rupert's Land.) It has the potential to be highly profitable, they can already reach it fairly easily, and they can perhaps extort some concessions from Spain that will give them rights in Spanish California. Spain's already reeling from the late Peninsular War, so outright cession might even be possible, framed as thanks for British assistance in that war. Such a cession would probably cause yet another crisis for the Spanish Crown, so that's more adventure stuff.

The question with the Oregon Territory is, can the British control it in the face of American immigration, let alone military adventurism. That depends so much on other factors (where else Britain might focus its resources, how the internal politics of a US that stretches from Georgia to Nova Scotia shake out, how Spanish America changes based on the changes up north, etc.) that it can go however you like, I think. Maybe Britain encourages settlement on its own terms; maybe it just maintains outposts and slowly loses its hold while its attention shifts to India.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

The question with the Oregon Territory is, can the British control it in the face of American immigration, let alone military adventurism. That depends so much on other factors (where else Britain might focus its resources, how the internal politics of a US that stretches from Georgia to Nova Scotia shake out, how Spanish America changes based on the changes up north, etc.) that it can go however you like, I think. Maybe Britain encourages settlement on its own terms; maybe it just maintains outposts and slowly loses its hold while its attention shifts to India.

If they import Indian (as in, from India) soldiers to that territory, they might well import Indian women, as well, creating the possibility of Hindu and Sikh colonies in Western North America.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

If they import Indian (as in, from India) soldiers to that territory, they might well import Indian women, as well, creating the possibility of Hindu and Sikh colonies in Western North America.

Given the terrible hardship the Sikh's suffered at the hand of the Moghuls, and their loyalty to the British, I could see the Raj offering land in California to any Sikh who had worked with them.

Soldiers who honorably served for a period of, say, 20 years, could get a large plot (40-120 acres, maybe, depending on land quality) somewhere on the British Pacific Coast.

That's enough to raise a family and, with hard work, produce enough surplus to live pretty well. It also creates a culturally-distinct group with few ties to anyone else in California, but which is profoundly loyal to the Crown of the United Kingdom.

[johndallman]

Taking tthis a bit further, the Rocky Mountains could be settled with Gurkhas as New Nepal.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Given the terrible hardship the Sikh's suffered at the hand of the Moghuls, and their loyalty to the British, I could see the Raj offering land in California to any Sikh who had worked with them.

Soldiers who honorably served for a period of, say, 20 years, could get a large plot (40-120 acres, maybe, depending on land quality) somewhere on the British Pacific Coast.

That's enough to raise a family and, with hard work, produce enough surplus to live pretty well. It also creates a culturally-distinct group with few ties to anyone else in California, but which is profoundly loyal to the Crown of the United Kingdom.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Taking tthis a bit further, the Rocky Mountains could be settled with Gurkhas as New Nepal.

This is shaping up to be a pretty interesting worldline.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Taking tthis a bit further, the Rocky Mountains could be settled with Gurkhas as New Nepal.

I'd think the Sierra Nevada Range would be more likely. The Rockies are a long way from California, and a lot of the territory between isn't really good for much -- especially with 18th or 19th century technologies.