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Old 07-20-2017, 07:18 AM   #31
dds_ks
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

Could you build a Detect version on "experienced people" to detect high CP characters? If so, would this be a version to evaluate the CP levels of different NPC?
It seems to me that the GURPS system lacks a power, spell or skill to find out how powerful an NPC is - many other systems have a way to "read levels".

Now one could argue that in real life such an ability doesn't exist. But on the other hand, there are no such big differences between life experience and skills in real world. You won't see a 300 CP juvenile (unless it is by status and money, which you could easily detect by just looking at clothes, trappings...), and -50 CP grown-ups are also quite rare (with possibly the exception of people with obvious bodily or mental disadvantages).
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:52 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

I don't actually know any games with a "detect level" ability or spell. I think the concept borders on incoherent unless it's explicitly a 4th-wall breaking character.

Regardless, Detect doesn't seem the right structure to analyze a random $thing for point total. You might detect "things with points", but that's kinda incoherent again; that's "things", really. You could detect "High point value characters" or "negative point value characters" or "characters with 30+ points in skills", or something like that.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

>>This should probably be a new thread.<<

Some D&D classes have abilities to detect if people are higher level or "have more Hit-die than themselves. Most recently the fighter class - battlemaster in D&D 5e.

It's probably most widely known from Dragonball fame "It's over 9000!!!"

But it's also a common trope in any setting with psionics of magics, that people with such powers can feel someones powerlevel: "He is strong in the force".


But I agree with Bruno, that it's not about CP total. I would base it on detect but then detect the "Power talent" level of the person. So for a mage, it would be their magery level. I would NOT base it on "total points spend on spells" for instance. As an old an experienced wizard who has a ton of spells and some at high levels, traditionally wouldn't be scanned as being "powerfull" unless they also had a really high level of magery. While a youngster with magery 4 and next to no points in spells would stil lbe detected as "powerful".
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:31 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

MMO characters routinely have the ability to "con" threats, and I could see a DF campaign based on an MMO having that power.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

Quote:
Originally Posted by dds_ks View Post
Could you build a Detect version on "experienced people" to detect high CP characters? If so, would this be a version to evaluate the CP levels of different NPC?
It seems to me that the GURPS system lacks a power, spell or skill to find out how powerful an NPC is - many other systems have a way to "read levels".
Here are a few post from Analyse character advantages
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Detect (Gifts and foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [75].

It would reveal all of the target's positive and negative traits relative to the racial norm – in game terms, their character sheet. Cosmic is in there to "go meta." The rest is self-explanatory. Although it's definitely supernatural, it doesn't have to be weird . . . To the character it would reveal things like test IQ, aptitude scores, lifting capacity, time to run a mile, childhood fears, etc. All things he'd understand in his world. It just happens to reveal these to the player as traits on a character sheet, since that's what the player understands in his world.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Well, this is based on the 30-point version of Detect. You can break it down from there:
  • Detect (Gifts and foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [75] gives you the lot.
  • Detect (Mental gifts and foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [50] gives you IQ, Will, Per, skills and techniques based on these, mental advantages and disadvantages, etc.
  • Detect (Physical gifts and foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [50] gives you ST, DX, HT, HP, FP, Basic Speed, Basic Move, skills and techniques based on these, physical advantages and disadvantages, etc.
  • Detect (Social gifts and foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [50] gives you Cultural Familiarities, Languages, social advantages and disadvantages, etc. Since there's less stuff here, I'd toss in any "mental" or "physical" trait that helps social functioning, like Appearance, Smooth Operator, or Streetwise skill.
  • Detect (Mental gifts; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Mental foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (Physical gifts; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Physical foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (Social gifts; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Social foibles; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [25]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (One very specific trait of any kind; Analyzing, +100%; Cosmic, +50%) [13]. Pretty specialized, and probably not worth the points in many cases, but would give you just IQ, or Will, or HT, or Status, or whatever else you want.
There's lots of room to quibble about category size and composition: Is a Language mental or social? How about Per? Can I shoehorn in "mental disadvantages" between "mental foibles" and "Bad Temper"? The important thing is the price spectrum: 75/50/25/13. Really, you could interpolate if you wanted . . . there's no magical reason not to allow 15- or 25-point levels of Detect, in which case you'd get 75/63/50/38/25/13.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Base on this it becomes:

  • Detect (Gifts and foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [24] gives you the lot.
  • Detect (Mental gifts and foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [16] gives you IQ, Will, Per, skills and techniques based on these, mental advantages and disadvantages, etc.
  • Detect (Physical gifts and foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [16] gives you ST, DX, HT, HP, FP, Basic Speed, Basic Move, skills and techniques based on these, physical advantages and disadvantages, etc.
  • Detect (Social gifts and foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [16] gives you Cultural Familiarities, Languages, social advantages and disadvantages, etc. Since there's less stuff here, I'd toss in any "mental" or "physical" trait that helps social functioning, like Appearance, Smooth Operator, or Streetwise skill.
  • Detect (Mental gifts; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Mental foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (Physical gifts; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Physical foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (Social gifts; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with positive point values.
  • Detect (Social foibles; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [8]. As above, but only stuff with negative point values.
  • Detect (One very specific trait of any kind; Analyzing Only, -50%; Cosmic, +50%; Sense-Based (Vision) -20%;) [4]. Pretty specialized, and probably not worth the points in many cases, but would give you just IQ, or Will, or HT, or Status, or whatever else you want.

Now Magic or Psi as well drops the points down to 21, 11, 7 and 4
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
...
But I agree with Bruno, that it's not about CP total. I would base it on detect but then detect the "Power talent" level of the person. So for a mage, it would be their magery level. I would NOT base it on "total points spend on spells" for instance. As an old an experienced wizard who has a ton of spells and some at high levels, traditionally wouldn't be scanned as being "powerfull" unless they also had a really high level of magery. While a youngster with magery 4 and next to no points in spells would stil lbe detected as "powerful".
I would define that more as potential than power as the words are normally used. But I do feel that the first is more gameable for giving information with less chance for abuse.
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Old 07-20-2017, 05:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I don't actually know any games with a "detect level" ability or spell. I think the concept borders on incoherent unless it's explicitly a 4th-wall breaking character.
In certain manga one of the powers "chi power" or "spiritual power" gives you is the ability to detect other people's power and roughly estimate whether you are out of their class or vice versa. Although that's probably be handled as a feature of the power modifier.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
In certain manga one of the powers "chi power" or "spiritual power" gives you is the ability to detect other people's power and roughly estimate whether you are out of their class or vice versa. Although that's probably be handled as a feature of the power modifier.
And I've seen games with Death Spells that, for instance, only kill someone of lower Level or someone whose level is a multiple of 5. You might not know what level the person you just killed actually was, but now you know it was divisible by 5.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
[...]
But I agree with Bruno, that it's not about CP total. [...]
Well, "CP total" is the only way to put it in a system that doesn't know "experience point based character levels". Most systems that I know had some way to detect the character level.
Well, in fact, now that I think about it, some of those system never made it to the American market as (in one case) nobody cared about translations or (in some other cases) market introduction failed because it's hard to establish a new product in an already existing market.

But the core "problem" still persists: You see a villain. It's a human. You can judge his ST, maybe also DX (smooth movements) and HT (pale skin).
Now your question is: Fight or Flight & call the cavalry. Inf fact you make your decision on your judgement of the GM: Does he like direct confrontation? Then it's probable that the power of the villain is not too high.
Or does the GM prefer subtle approaches? Then maybe many villains are too strong for direct attacks, and if you attack directly, then this probably will end in a heroic defeat...

In real world there wouldn't be a clear destinction between weapon skill and (general) DX, so "smooth movements" could give you some insight. And in real world, there's not the danger of somebody having 52 CP in a weapon skill. Of course, there are some special forces with high skill, but at least you should know whether your own skill is "fair", "great" or "close to best possible". In GURPS, there is no limit to skill. You could even invest hundreds of CP or more - which maybe might even be appropriate for a Jedi fighting in battles ("The Clone Wars"), who potentially have to parry dozens of blaster shots per second, each parry at a cumulative -2.

The Aura-spell gives you a chance to see hidden traits, but the list of possible readable traits is quite short.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:22 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#35): Detect

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Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
And I've seen games with Death Spells that, for instance, only kill someone of lower Level or someone whose level is a multiple of 5. You might not know what level the person you just killed actually was, but now you know it was divisible by 5.
There are games in which a spell costs "level of target" times some fixed amount of Energy Points, Magic Points, Endurance Points, Concentration Points or whatever they are called. Some of those spells say: "Invest a number of points and see whether it was enough", others say: "The magic takes the energy needed. If you have that much: good. If you don't, you have a problem."

By the way: I don't have the book with me, but isn't there even a necromantic spell in GURPS about banishing Deamons or Ghosts or something, and the costs directly depend on the CP value of the being-to-be-banished, and if you don't have enough FP, you might fall unconcious or something? If I remember right, the spell is even called "Banish".
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