How Would Ultra-Tech Without Computers Work?

[VonKatzen]

Just for fun I've been fiddling around with my Ultra-Tech books, and I am wondering just how some of the devices in there would function without computers or only Complexity 1 analog-style computers? Obviously it rules out robots, smart guns and VR but probably also holograms. And how would some of those Sensor packages work? Many of them specify that they have special filtering software - so would that make them harder to use without computers (more realistic) or would we just treat them as just as good and utilizing some analogue rotary-dial equivalent?

I remember when I was playing Prime Directive a lot of the equipment was pretty simple from a mechanical (not engineering) angle. But Star Trek does have lots of computers, albiet weird ones.

[Anthony]

Realistically, you can't do TL 9+ manufacturing without computers or something equivalent, so it doesn't look like anything at all. Cinematically, I would look early SF.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by VonKatzen

Just for fun I've been fiddling around with my Ultra-Tech books, and I am wondering just how some of the devices in there would function without computers or only Complexity 1 analog-style computers?

Look at nearly all of science fiction from before, say, the late 70s. There are exceptions ("Repent, Harlequin...", anything involving robots), but until computers really started to infiltrate people's consciousness, computers were primitive affairs, acting like high-speed card catalogs or replacements for physical libraries, but there was precious little automation. Weapons would be aimed by eye, all vessels flown by a pilot with his hands on the controls, and so on.

[Stormcrow]

I've pondered this question too, in thinking about using Ultra-Tech for Tales of the Solar Patrol. Unfortunately, while one can suppose a divergent technology level (e.g. TSP's TL[6+3]) can reproduce some things that a "normal" technology path would produce, UT is not written in a way to let you know which things absolutely couldn't be made without computers.

The only way to use UT with divergent tech levels is to first work out what technologies you want, then go to UT to get the stats for them.

For example, suppose I want to determine the medical equipment found in the sickbay of a typical Patrol ship in TSP. I can't just go through UT and choose everything at TL9. A diagnostic bed (p. 197) is presumably hooked up to computers to run the monitors, but it doesn't actually say that, and I can imagine the bio-beds in Star Trek that aren't connected to computers so far as we can tell. So are they reasonable? On the other hand, diagnostic probes (also p. 197) are obviously not appropriate for the setting... but could a drug be substituted that helps analog instruments do the same job? And a medical bed (p. 199) is not even conceivably appropriate. It's really not clear how to decide these issues, and the problem happens throughout the book.

The way to deal with it is to decide what technology you want to see without reference to the book at first, then when you've decided, look in the book for stats. So I decide I want a diagnostic bed like the one in Star Trek, and the UT version can be imagined to work that way, so I use its stats. I want advanced drugs, treatments, and tools, so bandage spray, first aid kits, surgical instruments, and plasti-spray all make sense, but little else does.

Hint: Avoid anything that has the word "smart" in its name!

[tanksoldier]

I am wondering just how some of the devices in there would function without computers or only Complexity 1 analog-style computers?

Steampunk-ish

Devices might be more refined but would essentially work the same way

More like Dune

UT is not written in a way to let you know which things absolutely couldn't be made without computers.

I suspect some things could be made or would work that we now think couldn't.

Like Dune, Humanity may breed and train human computers like the Mentats... the Navigators... and so on.

Warhammer 40K may provide examples, too.

[gruundehn]

Replacing computers, for large scale mostly, is lots of people. In the Lensman series there was mention that a pilot of the DAUNTLESS had lots of pedals and plungers to control the thrust of the engines and steer the ship. Look at the big ships in Star Wars, how many people are controlling the ship's systems on the bridge? Without computers, it will be thousands more. And that is just on the bridge.

Advanced weapons will be inaccurate compared to ones with computers aiding. Which means more shots to do the same job, either bigger magazines or bigger storage batteries, perhaps a battery in a backpack.

Other tech will be retarded because people do not do as well as computers in solving large-scale problems. The formula for the polymers used to build something probably hasn't been discovered yet. Stress loads have to be computed by hand, and so forth.

So, you may have to hand-wave a lot of lower-tech equipment.

[VonKatzen]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Steampunk-ish
I suspect some things could be made or would work that we now think couldn't.

Dune and 40K both fit what I was thinking of - a variant on 'empire' fiction. In those cases interstellar travel and the massive size of the overall human population means you can have incredible divisions of labor with entire continents or planets chosen because they're perfect for manufacturing a certain type of wire or glass just so. Someone earlier mentioned that a lot of TL9 production wouldn't be possible without computers, but that's mainly assuming they attempt to solve it the way we do - with tons of robots putting things together. The alternative may be that they have extremely well engineered analogue, man-operated machines that allow very fine but manual manipulation, and piecemeal construction. The overall effect might be a society that resembles TL6-7, but with specifically engineered devices that are able to replicate the feats of the best modern computers (or better!) in their own narrow areas. This is mainly unrealistic because we already know that digital computers work and are relatively easy to build out of common materials like silicon. But assuming they wouldn't is it any more realistic to think that technology would stagnate indefinitely? Certainly aspects of material science, drugs, physics, etc. would continue to advance - though they may be limited in some ways compared to our computer-controlled devices, they may also be more reliable and durable since they are fundamentally simpler machines.

Originally Posted by gruundehn

Replacing computers, for large scale mostly, is lots of people.

This creates an interesting problem when building starcraft by use of Spaceships. Presumably comparable craft would require much more crew, and have to be larger with more life support for that reason. Of course they would free up some space by not having computer banks, but computers really aren't all that big to begin with. The 'baroque battleships' from Singularity Sky might be an example. They're absolute juggernauts in human-operated combat, but against nanomachines they're fresh meat. Of course if nano-machines don't exist, they're a lot scarier.

Advanced weapons will be inaccurate compared to ones with computers aiding. Which means more shots to do the same job, either bigger magazines or bigger storage batteries, perhaps a battery in a backpack.

In the specific case I've gone with a world that has many devices comparable to TL9, but TL10^ gravity manipulation and TL10 explosives (metallic hydrogen) and pneumatics. So they ended up with Gravguns, Needle guns and some really wicked dangerous batteries and bombs, but otherwise are basically equipped with WW1 equipment if it had been scaled up in reliability/cost/etc. to a TL9 civilization that had no further advances than those mentioned.

Other tech will be retarded because people do not do as well as computers in solving large-scale problems. The formula for the polymers used to build something probably hasn't been discovered yet. Stress loads have to be computed by hand, and so forth.

I envisioned a lot of ceramics and alloys being used, instead of the ubiquitous plastic we have. However, artificially producing diamond would be viable for windows and that sort of thing.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by VonKatzen

This creates an interesting problem when building starcraft by use of Spaceships.

Spaceships 7 has a "Lacks Automation" design feature and "No Computer" design switch that fits pretty well. You end up with roughly ten times the crew, depending on ship size, and major penalties to certain tasks that typically depend on computer control (Point-defense fire, for example).

[VonKatzen]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Spaceships 7 has a "Lacks Automation" design feature and "No Computer" design switch that fits pretty well. You end up with roughly ten times the crew, depending on ship size, and major penalties to certain tasks that typically depend on computer control (Point-defense fire, for example).

Good to know, I thought of Spaceships 7 as the 'Spelljammer' book, I forgot it had divergent tech options.

[whswhs]

Look up de Prony, a French engineer of ca. 1800. He took on the job of producing new mathematical tables based on the metric system (including trig functions of decimal units of angle, I believe!). To do this, he hired dozens of hairdressers left unemployed by the Revolution to do addition and subtraction; and he had smaller groups of mathematicians assigning specific problems to them, one at a time. That was essentially Computer Programming without a computer, done very slowly, and with Administration in place of Computer Operation.