Hardened - replaces Warrior and Veteran

[Steve Jackson]

Replace Warrior and Veteran with:

Hardened (1): Represents the toughness and expertise gained from years of combat experience. You are tough and hard to hit, and you know how to take a blow. You may take this talent up to 3 times. Each “Hardened” subtracts one point from every attack made against you.
Prerequisite: ST 12 for one level, ST 13 for two or more.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Replace Warrior and Veteran with:

Hardened (1): Represents the toughness and expertise gained from years of combat experience. You are tough and hard to hit, and you know how to take a blow. You may take this talent up to 3 times. Each “Hardened” subtracts one point from every attack made against you.
Prerequisite: ST 12 for one level, ST 13 for two or more.

I think that's too cheap Steve. Previously, Warrior plus Veteran Talents cost 5 IQ points and gave you 2 protection. Now you can have 3 protection for 3 IQ points. Even with the pre-requisites that's too easy. You can now pay 3 IQ and have permanent chainmail protection with no encumbrance or DX reduction. I think each level should cost 2 (and I'm not sure about allowing 3 levels.)

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I think that's too cheap Steve. Previously, Warrior plus Veteran Talents cost 5 IQ points and gave you 2 protection. Now you can have 3 protection for 3 IQ points. Even with the pre-requisites that's too easy. You can now pay 3 IQ and have permanent chainmail protection with no encumbrance or DX reduction. I think each level should cost 2 (and I'm not sure about allowing 3 levels.)

Agreed; and I liked the individual names.

JK

[Skarg]

I like the name in that it seems for descriptive of what it does.

In theory I like that it is available at lower ST, but in practice it does greatly tilt the 32-point fighter balance to ST 12 and 13, which is where the sweet spot already was...

It's a little hard to fully evaluate when there are so many other parts of the system potentially changing. They're all inter-related. If these are only available at about the point you're letting experts do an extra 1d damage, then those at least would balance against each other.

In standard TFT, there is already a marked advantage in one or two increased points in ST or DX, and a marked superiority at 4 attribute points difference. Armor points with no negatives are in general worth a little more than a +1 attribute.

In olde ITL, Warrior and Veteran were valuable, significant, and prized talents, clearly a high-priority choice for any warrior who was capable of them. There also wasn't much competition for what to do with talent points for warriors, though, but still, it was a major goal even with the ITL prereqs.

One of the things up in the air is "what will it take to get advanced combat talents?" If you can just start with it for a "memory" point, that's almost like having it be free. If it can't be started with, and takes a lot of XP, that'd be something else.

Soaking a damage point is a big deal, mainly because armor stacks with other armor - eventually it become a multiplier of combat power, and when it starts getting about as high as enemies can damage you, the value of another +1 armor can be huge.

I agree +3 is a lot. I would think the costs (XP?) should increase steeply with level, both for theme/verisimilitude, and for balance reasons.

The name and accessibility make me think even more that I also want an "Evasive" and/or "Defense Master" talent or something. More things to make avoiding damage rather than absorbing it a viable approach.

[luguvalium]

I like that they are combined and I like the name, but I think that stopping 3 hits per attack is too powerful for the talent cost. I don't see the toughest human being the equivalent of chainmail.

A suggestion would be to have up the damage protection be from the first strike in a battle. This makes the hardened character more resilient from faster characters while not making them super powerful.

[Steve Jackson]

Yes, that's undervalued. Should be 2, and probably only available at 2 levels. If there was such a thing as 1.5 tht's what I would have written. But I think the ability to deflect/absorb damage is not unrealistic at all. Some of it is rolling with the punches, and some people are just tough. It's really a mental quality as much as a physical, I think. But we are not adding a Will stat so the mental side is not recognized.

[CJM]

But I think the ability to deflect/absorb damage is not unrealistic at all. Some of it is rolling with the punches, and some people are just tough. It's really a mental quality as much as a physical, I think. But we are not adding a Will stat so the mental side is not recognized.

I believe you are correct, in training back in the day we were told about an officer that got shot 37 times in a fire fight and lived...he kept fighting. Another got shot once in an none vital area (did not bleed out), I think in the leg and died. Surviving is as much mental...or more so...then physical. Like a special forces friend told me...you got 12 seconds left to fight after you get shot through the hart...a will to live and a will to keep fighting needs to be represented in the rules. Maybe the cost is to low or you think 3 hits stopped is to high...don't really know for sure. I guess I'm OK with 3 if the cost is appropriate and it doesn't unbalance the game.

[larsdangly]

Looks good, but I agree the cost should be raised to 2 per point (or cost 1, 2, 3 for levels 1, 2 and 3 respectively).

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Looks good, but I agree the cost should be raised to 2 per point (or cost 1, 2, 3 for levels 1, 2 and 3 respectively).

2,3,4 would keep the old cost structure but now add an extra level but at a huge cost.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Wayne

2,3,4 would keep the old cost structure but now add an extra level but at a huge cost.

Yes, sounds like the cost I'd use, though again it's hard to pick a cost without knowing what the talent-gaining rules are. If memory is still limited to IQ, I already know my favorite comedy character design: Hardened 3, ST 13 DX 10 IQ 9, 2+3+4 = 9, can't learn any other talents. Uses clubs. Aspires to increase IQ to learn Brawling...