Advanced Combat Skills

[Rick_Smith]

Hi all, here is a different version for discussion...

IQ 8 .. Unarmed Combat (1). Basic martial arts, similar to judo, karate, la savate, etc. A figure with this skill can:
• Punch. Does one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
Note: None of the bonuses of the different Unarmed Combat abilities stack. Just use the best one that applies.
Note: To use this skill – or any of the higher-level Unarmed Combat skills – a figure must be unarmored, or wearing cloth armor only, and have both hands free. No “unskilled” use of unarmored combat talents is allowed.
Prerequisites: a DX of 8 or more.

IQ 9 .. Unarmed Combat II (1). As U.C. I, except:
• Punch. Does 2 extra hits of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -4 DX and do two extra points of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Evade. Attacks from your front hexes are at -1 DX to hit you, and MELEE damage done thru your front hexes to you is reduced by 1 hit per attack.
Prerequisites: U.C. I and a DX of 10 or more.

IQ 10 .. Unarmed Combat III (2). As U.C. II, except:
• Punch. Does 3 extra hits with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -4 DX and do 3 extra points of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules. If your target falls, then you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. Attacks from your front hexes are at -2 DX to hit you, and MELEE damage done thru your front hexes to you is reduced by 2 hits per attack.
Prerequisites: U.C. II, DX 12 or more.

IQ 11 .. Unarmed Combat IV (2). As U.C. III, except:
• Punch. Does an extra die of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -4 DX and do one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 1 hit (armor does not protect), and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. You have a natural “eyes-behind” (like the spell) at all times. Your side hexes count as front hexes, and your rear hex counts as a side hex. Attacks from all your front hexes are at -3 DX to hit you, and MELEE damage done to you thru your front hexes, is reduced by 3 hits per attack.
• Defending Bonus. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll an extra die to hit you. (Added to the extra die for defending, so normally 5 dice.)
Prerequisite: U.C. III, DX 14 or more.

IQ 12 .. Unarmed Combat V (3). Mastery of martial arts. As U.C. IV, except:
• Punch. Does an extra 1d+1 damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Flurry of Punches. Make two rapid blows against the same or different foes rolling to hit for each at -4 DX. Do the normal fist damage above on each attack.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at -4 DX and do an extra 1d+1 damage compared to your bare-hands attack.
• Throw: You may “shield-rush” without a shield. Use the shield-rush rules, but the opponent’s roll to defend is on 4 dice. If your target falls, they take 2 hits (armor does not protect) and you may immediately move on top of them to attempt HTH.
• Evade. All your hexes count as front hexes. Attacks from adjacent hexes are at -4 DX to hit you, and MELEE damage done to you from any adjacent hex is reduced by 4 hits per attack.
• Defending Bonus. If you take the Defend option, your attacker must roll two extra dice to hit you.
• Nerve blows. You may say that you are striking at a nerve and attack at -4 DX. If such a strike hits an armed foe for more than 3 points of damage, that foe automatically drops his or her weapon.
(Note: You may make both a flurry of blows AND do a nerve blow at the same time at -8 DX. You may both kick and do a nerve blow at -8 DX. But you may not both kick and do a flurry of blows.)
Prerequisites: U.C. IV, DX 16 or more.

Discussion welcome.

Warm regards, Rick.

[tbeard1999]

I want to playtest these before commenting too much. Initial thoughts are:

1. In general, these revised UC talents certainly make martial artists more powerful as I’ve lobbied for. You’ve kept the IQ prerequisites and costs, but dropped the DX requirements. Seems a fair compromise.

2. A few clarifications are badly needed please:

A. A UC V figure does three points of damage to a foe, but the foe is wearing leather armor. The foe therefore only takes 1 hit of damage. Does the target still drop his weapon?

B. Nerve strike doesn’t work with a kick, right?

C. At UC III a punch does 1 die extra damage with bare hands. A kick does “one extra die of damage compared to your bare-hands attack.” So does a kick do a total of 1 or 2 dice more damage?

Example - Per AM:21 a ST 12 figure does 1-2 damage with bare hands. A figure with UC III does 2-2 with a punch. Will he do 3-2 with a kick? If not, delete the kick, since it’s identical to the punch. If so, should the kick carry a DX penalty? Without that, martial artists will always do kicks instead of punches, won’t they?

3. I’m very concerned that the nerve strike ability is overpowered. If a ST 10 UC V master can do 3-3 damage bare handed, he’ll average 7 points of damage. He’ll do at least 3 points of damage 95.37% of the time. Consider deleting nerve strike (or replacing with some version of the disarming attack rules, or allowing a reasonable saving throw).

4. ST12 fighter with Sword Mastery will do 2d damage with a broadsword (+2 DX) or 3+2 with a shrewd blow (+0 DX).

A ST 12 UC V figure does 3-2 with a punch and (maybe) 4-2 with a kick.

The fighter does more damage with his broadsword than the UC master does with a punch. Damage is about the same comparing the broadsword and kick (assuming my interpretation of the rule is correct).

The fighter has spent 8 talent points vs 9 for the UC master. He can wear armor and use shields.

The UC V master can only wear cloth, but gets 4 points of armor for free. In the aggregate, the martial artist is slightly inferior most of the time, which is fine by me. However, depending on the nerve strike clarification and the kick clarification, the UC master could be superior, which wouldn’t be desirable in my opinion.

5. It’s probably way too fiddly to worry about this, but it hurts FAR more when thrown on a hard surface (concrete or stone) vs thrown on grass. I don’t know if the complexity is worth it, but I’d reduce damage from a throw if the victim is on grass. Also a trained martial artist will usually take less damage from a throw, at least on grass or similar soft surfaces. Knowing how to fall didn’t help me much when thrown on a hard surface.

6. I am concerned about the DX bonuses for weapons masters. If you’re going to limit attribute increases to a total of 8 points, the IQ cost will keep DX from getting too high. If you abandon the limit on attribute increases, reconsider the DX bonuses. Remember that if you keep the Aimed Attacks rules, figures with adjDX 16 can hit the head 50% of the time. And 5 points of damage will KO the opponent.

7. If you need to remove or nerf an ability with the mastery talents, allowing multiple attacks at normal damage is a nice compensatory ability. I’d allow sweeping attacks with one handed weapons at no (or less) DX penalty and normal damage. This keeps it from being TOO powerful.

[Rick_Smith]

Here is a fast version of how I would handle these. None of these are tested, but I thought it might prompt discussion.

Note that Expertise is now only a 2 memory talent. I have increased the prerequisites to make it hard for starting characters to have these talents.

I'm not referring to the Fencing talents. I am not sure what Steve and Guy want to capture with those rules.


IQ 10 .. <Weapon> Expertise ( 2 )
Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, someone with Sword Expertise gets no bonus with axes or maces. Expertise applies only to hand weapons, but see the Missile Weapons skill.
Dagger Expertise is a separate Expertise talent from Sword Expertise.
• Bonus to hit. An Expert gets +1 damage on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Shrewd blow. An Expert may attack at -6 DX and do an extra die of damage. (This is added to the +1 damage above.)
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon talent, DX 12 or more


IQ 12 .. <Weapon> Mastery (3):
Mastery is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, a Master Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Dagger Mastery is also separate from Sword Mastery.
Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise, just use the best bonus.
• Bonus to hit. A Master does +2 damage on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll one extra die when attacking thru the master's front hexes.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, no damage is done to the target, but the foe must roll 3/DX to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped. (If the foe has an Expert skill with his weapon, he rolls only 2/DX to hold on to it. Masters of a weapon never drop their weapons from this form of disarming attack.)
• Shrewd blow. A Master may attack at -3 DX and do an extra 1d+2 damage. (This is added to the +2 damage above.)
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon expertise, a ST greater than racial average, and a DX 14 or more


Discussion welcome.

Warm regards, Rick.

[tomc]

Would a "Brawling" skill (IQ 7) make sense? It wouldn't be on the martial arts track, but would reflect experience gained in bar fights and such. Maybe a +1 damage bonus to fists and improvised clubs. A small bonus getting into or avoiding HTH would be appropriate as well.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Here is a fast version of how I would handle these. None of these are tested, but I thought it might prompt discussion.

Note that Expertise is now only a 2 memory talent. I have increased the prerequisites to make it hard for starting characters to have these talents.

I'm not referring to the Fencing talents. I am not sure what Steve and Guy want to capture with those rules.


IQ 10 .. <Weapon> Expertise ( 2 )
Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, someone with Sword Expertise gets no bonus with axes or maces. Expertise applies only to hand weapons, but see the Missile Weapons skill.
Dagger Expertise is a separate Expertise talent from Sword Expertise.
• Bonus to hit. An Expert gets +1 damage on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Shrewd blow. An Expert may attack at -6 DX and do an extra die of damage. (This is added to the +1 damage above.)
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon talent, DX 12 or more


IQ 12 .. <Weapon> Mastery (3):
Mastery is a separate talent for each Weapon talent. For instance, a Master Swordsman gets no bonus with axes or maces. Dagger Mastery is also separate from Sword Mastery.
Bonuses from Mastery do not stack with those from Expertise, just use the best bonus.
• Bonus to hit. A Master does +2 damage on each attack with that weapon type, including thrown attacks if the weapon is throwable.
• Bonus to defend. If an Expert chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll one extra die when attacking thru the master's front hexes.
• Disarming. Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, a Master may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, no damage is done to the target, but the foe must roll 3/DX to retain his weapon; otherwise, it is dropped. (If the foe has an Expert skill with his weapon, he rolls only 2/DX to hold on to it. Masters of a weapon never drop their weapons from this form of disarming attack.)
• Shrewd blow. A Master may attack at -3 DX and do an extra 1d+2 damage. (This is added to the +2 damage above.)
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon expertise, a ST greater than racial average, and a DX 14 or more


Discussion welcome.

Warm regards, Rick.

These Talents seem to be getting quite involved; I'm concerned that is getting away from the spirit of the game. Why not simplify:

Ok, I buy The SWORD Talent for (2) and it works as written. For every additional point I put into the Talent I get a 1 point bonus I can use as follows; +1 to hit, +1 damage, -1 to opponents chance to hit.

So Sword (+3) costs me 5 IQ, and gives me +3 to hit, +3 damage, or -3 to opponents hit chance.

[larsdangly]

Three notes:
The progression in 'throw' damage looks like a mistake

Kick damage seems too static compared to punch damage

How is fencing different from weapon mastery? They seem identical, so I would present only one (the more general weapon expertise/mastery), and just present the fencing weapons as their own talent (rather than being part of the broader group of other swords)

But, the concepts are good!

[zot]

I like talents that provide an extra set of options. Also, I like keeping them discrete.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by RobW

I agree with your logic, but the min DX requirements help keep them out of the hands of beginning characters.

Is there any need to keep them out of the hands of beginning characters?

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Is there any need to keep them out of the hands of beginning characters?

I see no reason. TFT is explicitly a classless (mostly) and level-less system. I don’t think folks lose much sleep over starting wizards being able to theoretically get IQ 16 spells.

And the limit of 8 maximum attribute points sorta limits the prerequisites, assuming you want starting characters to have a chance at them.

EDIT - After looking at it more closely, I still agree with my statements above, with one caveat - the UCV talent looks to me to be too powerful. I think a beginning character with UC V will outclass a normal TFT fighter. I am going to test it with more powerful characters. If the problem remains, then the talent needs to be nerfed. If the problem reverses at higher point totals, then the talent probably needs to be put outside the reach of beginning characters.

[luguvalium]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Guy and I both think these are about right.

Steve and Guy-
I like these, but some clarifications:

Will Thrown Weapons still exist, or is it completely replaced by Weapon Expertise and Weapon Mastery?

What is the IQ requirement for Expert Fencer? 10?

Is the IQ requirement for Missile Weapons still 9?

Expert Fencer and Master Fencer include Two Weapon for the fencing weapons. Does Two Weapons talent still exist for other weapons?

I would recommend that Expert Fencer, just be named Fencer and
Missile Weapon be named Marksman or Sharpshooter since they are more common terms.