Armor

[larsdangly]

Every fighter will take the talent only if it costs little and had trivial prerequisites. Consider the Veteran and Warrior talents: They are really, really useful, but in my experience not many people take them. That's because you have to have IQ 9 (not genius but it is an extra point you didn't put somewhere else), the ST prereqs are substantial, and they cost a lot of talent points. So, everyone might like them but not many people have them. I'm of two minds about an armor talent, but clearly it could be done in such a way that the cost is appropriate, balanced and therefore just one of several paths a character could take.

[John Brinegar]

Originally Posted by Wayne

That all looks good, but it got me thinking, why not allow fine everything?

Fine armour:
-1 DX penalty, +1 extra hits stopped, x10 cost based on underlying armour type.

Fine Cloth no DX penalty, -2 hits, cost $500
Fine Leather -1 DX, -3 hits, cost $1,000
Fine Chainmail -2 DX, -4 hits, cost $2,000
Fine Half plate -3 DX, -5 hits, cost $3,000
Fine Plate -4 DX, -6 hits, cost $5,000

Potentially you decrease the MA penalty as well.

From a game-mechanics standpoint, this is fine and logical, but it's more problematic as a simulation of armor. An armorer can make exceptionally good plate armor because plate armor is a complex artifact; technical skill can make that artifact more efficient. It's harder to see how you improve the efficiency of simpler armor types like cloth or leather.

[Steve Jackson]

I agree with what John said there.

[Steve Jackson]

That does raise a point, though - should I try to tuck cloth, or half-plate, or both, into the MELEE table (room is tight) or leave them in the advanced rules?

[Wayne]

It's harder to see how you improve the efficiency of simpler armor types like cloth or leather.

Point taken, I just liked the logical progression and something that is well made presumably is more robust.

If you want a justification for it:
Some leather is tougher than other and potentially more expensive, maybe the leather comes from animals that can't be domesticated?

Similarly with cloth, some fibres may be stronger, for eg. the fibres from the kevlar tree?

More seriously a cloth made from giant spider silk is dangerous to obtain and is likely to be stronger.

Giant spider webs are tough and sticky. If you run into one (3 dice vs. IQ to see it in shadows), you may try to break free (4 dice vs. ST, each turn), or cut it (any hit from an edged weapon doing 5 damage). Your DX is -4 while you are trapped in web. Multiple webs are possible; each web has a ST of 20.

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

That does raise a point, though - should I try to tuck cloth, or half-plate, or both, into the MELEE table (room is tight) or leave them in the advanced rules?

If you can squeeze them in, great. If there is room for only one in Melee, cloth would be very handy to have.

As for the armor talent, I'd vote no.

The proposed armor revision, I'd vote yes. The progression seems to follow nicely from one to the next this way.

[larsdangly]

People like gear, and it costs nothing to give it to them, so I'd vote for including all the armors in Melee.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

That does raise a point, though - should I try to tuck cloth, or half-plate, or both, into the MELEE table (room is tight) or leave them in the advanced rules?

Put them in MELEE, by all means!

I can't claim to ever have worn armor of any kind, but I'd suspect that a suit of cloth or leather armor tailor-made for a character would fit better, and thus be less cumbersome than an off-the-shelf set.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Starting a new thread for the discussion of an armor talent (my experience and my thoughts about game balance lead me to object, but I will listen) and a specific question:

Should armor DX penalties and hits taken be modified slightly into a straight line?

It looks like the AM table is based upon 1 extra penalty for rigid body armor, and 1 less for shields. The pack can easily be seen as non-frame -1, frame -2, but it doesn't specify...

I'll note that well fitted armor is probably not that bad to one accustomed to wearing it, but my own experience says the additional penalty for rigid body is appropriate, simply because it's restricting 2-axises of movement on the torso.

I'd prefer to see it in formula form, tho'.

[luguvalium]

I like the proposed armor adjustments, baring any problems found in playtesting.

I don't like the idea of an armor talent.

I like adding cloth and half-plate and tower shield to the Melee armor table - I do this already in my recent Melee games.