01-13-2018, 02:13 PM | #21 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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01-13-2018, 02:20 PM | #22 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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01-13-2018, 02:29 PM | #23 |
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Okay, guys. Let's back it off a notch. We're all here for the giant robot tank goodness.
While I disagree with the need for tbeard's suggested rules, if they work for his games, then who am I to say how he should play? Ogre is fantastic for house rules because it's such a simple system. Instead of repeating ourselves about why we don't like them, perhaps we could take a few moments to consider the implications and make suggestions as to how to make them even better. |
01-13-2018, 02:30 PM | #24 | ||
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Quote:
The problem as I noted earlier is that the game rewards tactics that would not rationally be used on a battlefield like the one that GEV describes. None of your explanations change that, I'm afraid. Even worse than the magical teleporting GEVs is the problem I mentioned previously: Quote:
Personally, I just think that it's an artifact of a fast and simple sequence of play that was perfectly good for the situation described in Ogre - a pitiless giant tank driving towards a command post. But when it was expanded into a tactical armored game (a sort of sci-fi Panzerblitz, which is a compliment), the sequence of play wasn't as robust. But it is generally good enough. The genius in GEV is the lack of line of sight requirements. That eliminates the most egregious problem with a "ugo/igo" sequence of play - panzerbushing. But unfortunately, it doesn't eliminate the exploit I described. I'd also add that there's an almost endless of things I really admire about Ogre/GEV. The ground units are superbly well balanced against each other (except for the lt tank; I think it should cost 2/3 of an armor unit). The disabled mechanic allows for a simple, temporary erosion of combat capability. The overrun mechanic is classic. It's so good that I pretty much stole it for A Fistful of TOWs (and gave due credit in the designers' notes). Infantry, especially in GEV, work very well. And on and on. But my tremendous regard for the game doesn't blind me to my friend's legitimate complaints about implausible tactics. Fortunately, the solution is simple and takes very little additional time. I'll be using it going forward, though not for classic Ogre games. |
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01-13-2018, 02:31 PM | #25 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Charleston SC, USA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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However... The simplest answer to your friends question is: "Well, in OGRE there are two types of tanks: those in motion, and those on fire. That Light Tank you parked on the waters' edge? Sitting duck for any GEV who gets to pick the time and place and who's ECM is designed to handle an over-water approach. You need to deploy a few miles back so you can ambush it as it becomes vulnerable making landfall. Be a Panzer, not the Maginot Line -- you know how that turned out." Defense-in-Depth is also a thing. OGRE game mechanics encourages everyone to stay in motion in order to do onto others and do it first, with formations constantly moving and shifting about in a decent imitation of maneuver warfare (or at least it would if the CRT didn't kill everyone off so darned fast, but that's another topic). Hold Fire could quickly become a reason to Hold Fast, where the fight is won by whoever has the greatest range. At that point Missile Tanks take over and who really wants that? |
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01-13-2018, 02:35 PM | #26 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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01-13-2018, 02:37 PM | #27 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Ogre seems to be a very poor choice in that case. Maybe try SPQR instead?
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01-13-2018, 02:50 PM | #28 | ||
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Quote:
Nor does it plausibly address the other issues I raised (being forced to abandon a position without the enemy firing a shot). I can see no plausible Real World reason that a stationary AFV can't engage a detected enemy AFV when that enemy AFV enters weapon range. Assuming of course, that the stationary AFV isn't shooting at something else or disabled. The reverse, by the way, is also true. GEV's universe assumes near-omniscience for the tactical commander (an assumption that I find very plausible). So the GEV's should also be able to attack an enemy unit as soon as the GEV moves into range. It should not be required wait until the enemy unit shoots. Absent some system to determine who fires first, the most logical approach would be simultaneous fire. Kinda like the Hold Fire mechanic. That's particularly true since GEV assumes rapid fire weapons with area effect. It's likely that multiple shots are required to kill a target. Overwatch and "waiting for them to come into range" are fundamental armored warfare tactics and the universe of GEV, as described by the designer, would not change that. I now find their absence disconcerting. Fortunately, it's an east problem to address. And like me, my friend has been a wargamer for 40+ years. Quote:
Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 02:59 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 03:01 PM | #29 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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01-13-2018, 03:10 PM | #30 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Quote:
I don't think that will be a huge issue. In Fistful of TOWs - a similar tactical game to GEV in many respects - Hold Fire ceases to be used once the battle gets joined. In FFT3, Hold Fire is resolved simultaneously with enemy fire (the solution I advocate for GEV). I would expect the same in GEV. A point that some may be missing is that a unit has to forego its attack in its turn to get a Hold Fire marker. Essentially, the unit is delaying its attack until the enemy combat phase. And a unit will always fire in its turn if possible. Otherwise it winds up firing simultaneously with the enemy. What Hold Fire does is stop the unrealistic "bum rush" tactic endemic to all ugo/igo systems. And it would also prevent GEVs from the exploits I previously described. |
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