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Old 07-09-2014, 06:14 AM   #1
Raekai
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Default Help With Meshing Magic And Technology

Hey, all!

I'm dying to run a campaign where there is both magic and laser guns. Of course, I'm simplifying it a bit, but that's because my problem here is really killing me. It costs a lot of points to be decent at magic. It costs a few points to be pretty good at firing off your laser gun that you purchased with cash. Now the laser gun character has way more points to work with here.

Would it be ridiculous to charge points for laser guns somehow? Either building them as gadget Innate Attacks or a mix of higher TL plus an Unusual Background? They aren't too super rare, but I thought that either approach would help with the character points issue. This way, the Magi aren't also running around with laser guns but the laser guns folk don't get a whole bunch of extra freed up points.

Or am I missing some sort of intrinsic balance? The balance between a Jedi and a Clone Trooper or Droid? Between the rare squishy Magi and the guys that can purchase guns off of the street? That was just an example. My campaign has nothing to do with Star Wars.

It's more of a fantasy setting where, since the main race uses magic, not a lot of technology exists. However, there is alien technology from a previous civilization as well as from other aliens out there who don't use magic. It's just your typical stuff like laser guns and a handful of robots and whatnot. Of course, the Magi have golems like the aliens have robots. It's just guns vs. magic that makes me scratch my chin.

Any help is welcome! I'll take examples or advice or whatever.
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Old 07-09-2014, 06:54 AM   #2
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What makes this work for me is that mages can also buy off-the-shelf laser guns. So the mages aren't necessarily squishy - there's no reason for them not to be wearing best-of-TL body armor and carrying best-available sidearms. They've just got unique other abilities that no laser pistol can match. Not missile spells, obviously - but all the other utility stuff retains its utility in UT just as well as it does in Fantasy.

Sure, they won't have Gunslinger or [20] in Guns, but who needs it when you can cast any of a dozen spells that mean your opponent can't shoot back?
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:05 AM   #3
Raekai
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Default Re: Help With Meshing Magic And Technology

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What makes this work for me is that mages can also buy off-the-shelf laser guns. So the mages aren't necessarily squishy - there's no reason for them not to be wearing best-of-TL body armor and carrying best-available sidearms. They've just got unique other abilities that no laser pistol can match. Not missile spells, obviously - but all the other utility stuff retains its utility in UT just as well as it does in Fantasy.

Sure, they won't have Gunslinger or [20] in Guns, but who needs it when you can cast any of a dozen spells that mean your opponent can't shoot back?
Hmm... I think you're very right, actually. I think that, instead of paying for guns outright, I'll just have the pay for High TL like normal. So, obviously, mages who want to use both will have to pay for it too. Like I said, it's alien technology, so I think that's fitting. Or maybe... A familiarity perk for each thing? High TL sounds simpler.
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:15 AM   #4
johndallman
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Default Re: Help With Meshing Magic And Technology

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Originally Posted by Raekai View Post
It costs a few points to be pretty good at firing off your laser gun that you purchased with cash. .... It's more of a fantasy setting where, since the main race uses magic, not a lot of technology exists. However, there is alien technology from a previous civilization as well as from other aliens out there who don't use magic.
No, you aren't missing any intrinsic balancers built into GURPS. You have an actual problem, and there are several ways to solve it.

How rare are laser guns? That relates to their prices. Are they as expensive as sports cars? As Rolls-Royces? Requiring a lot of Wealth to be a gunman isn't that limiting, because Wealth has a lot of other uses, but it soaks up points.

Lasers may be vulnerable to damp (it doesn't rain enough in most game worlds), will need power (it doesn't seem as if batteries would be remotely as common as in the real world), and will need maintenance with Armoury/TL skill (who teaches that?). They aren't magic items, and enforcing their limitations will make them less attractive as a solution to all combat problems.

That said, they may be really useful for combat. But that raises the question of why the military of this society don't regard them as military-only weapons and have a monopoly of them? Perhaps you have to be an ex-soldier, who's sunk a lot of points into training, to be able to get a license for a laser, and wealthy to be able to afford one?

Digging into the details of how weapons are owned and used in your setting may suggest other answers.
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:31 AM   #5
Raekai
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No, you aren't missing any intrinsic balancers built into GURPS. You have an actual problem, and there are several ways to solve it.

How rare are laser guns? That relates to their prices. Are they as expensive as sports cars? As Rolls-Royces? Requiring a lot of Wealth to be a gunman isn't that limiting, because Wealth has a lot of other uses, but it soaks up points.

Lasers may be vulnerable to damp (it doesn't rain enough in most game worlds), will need power (it doesn't seem as if batteries would be remotely as common as in the real world), and will need maintenance with Armoury/TL skill (who teaches that?). They aren't magic items, and enforcing their limitations will make them less attractive as a solution to all combat problems.

That said, they may be really useful for combat. But that raises the question of why the military of this society don't regard them as military-only weapons and have a monopoly of them? Perhaps you have to be an ex-soldier, who's sunk a lot of points into training, to be able to get a license for a laser, and wealthy to be able to afford one?

Digging into the details of how weapons are owned and used in your setting may suggest other answers.
That was awesome. In two posts, I think that I have my sufficient answer. Of course, more discussions is welcome, but I have been given a great wealth of ideas to work with.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:21 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Raekai View Post
Hey, all!

I'm dying to run a campaign where there is both magic and laser guns. Of course, I'm simplifying it a bit, but that's because my problem here is really killing me. It costs a lot of points to be decent at magic. It costs a few points to be pretty good at firing off your laser gun that you purchased with cash. Now the laser gun character has way more points to work with here.
It only costs a few points to learn a single attack spell. Good at magic is equivalent to being good at a lot of different skills. More fundamentally though this is the whole point of tools. They aren't just cool looking props, the reason they exist in the first place is to make something significantly easier. If they didn't nobody would have built them in the first place.

Oddly nobody brings this up when comparing buying a bicycle to raising your running move, or grocery shopping compared to the number of skills and amount of hard work you have to do to feed yourself as a subsistence farmer, but it comes up a lot with respect to weapons vs. unarmed combat or magic. Yes high tech killing tools are good at killing things, that's why they exist at all.

If you want the equivalent effect from magic *buy a magic item*. And sure, they're expensive by the hand manufacturing rules. Building that laser pistol from scratch would take a ridiculous number of skills and years of hard work too - between the prospecting and refining and chemical synthesis and machining and electronics manufacture and optics grinding and engineering design - if that were the only way to get one, they'd cost a fortune too.

If you really insist on individual magicians equaling a technology, you need to think of each spell as a tool and pick one as good as the technological tool you want it to rival. The "problem" here seems to be that the standard spell list is very uneven measured against TL. There are lots of fields where the standard spells utterly outclass what technology can do already (and mysteriously people don't complain a lot about that) but straight up damage isn't one of them, especially after TL5. If you want it to be, you will need to write some new overpowered damaging or defensive spells.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:37 AM   #7
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That was awesome. In two posts, I think that I have my sufficient answer. Of course, more discussions is welcome, but I have been given a great wealth of ideas to work with.
You probably should note that the default versions of Deflect Missiles and Reflect Missiles doesn't work on lasers (or the laser-mimicking Sunbolt spell).

Variants that did work on lasers are possible but not standard.

Probably the Deflect Energy Spell does work on lasers.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Help With Meshing Magic And Technology

CP value represents both the power level of a character and (in skills) his training.

Be the characters: if you need an innate talent plus a thousand hours of training to achieve with magic the same effect of a lasergun, why don't you learn to use laserguns? The remaining hours (that is, the remaining CP) will be useful to learn meaningful magic. For example precognition magic or blessing magic or whatever effect technology cannot reproduce.

If, on the contrary, you find that laser-like magic is useful in spite of the huge cost (for example for better carriability or LC), then this edge justifies the cost.

Least: is it only a cosmetic issue? Some player wants a lasergun and some other ninja/psychic/mystic/magical laser ray? If it's only a matter of fashion, then give both options the same cost, possibly adding a gadget limitation to gun option (or possibly give both a gadget limitation, lasergun vs magical wand).
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:48 AM   #9
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Least: is it only a cosmetic issue? .
Most of the time it is - though in some games the cosmetic issues are enforced by the rules. This is why D&D games tend to accumulate constructs like hypnotizing people with the pattern you waive your sword in, or bards who know the Guitar Riff of Disintegration.

You need to decide whether that's a good enough reason for this game. In a Supers game having all your abilities connected to your character theme is a genre feature, no matter how much stretching that requires. In a highly realistic setting, mages should buy a laser pistol. It's the intermediate cases that are hard.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help With Meshing Magic And Technology

First of all, Gurps magic is not primarily combat oriented. Once you accept that, everything will run smoother.

Someone will shout "OFC MAGIC CAN BE COMBATIVE!!! I HAVE THIS XYZ COMBO...!" and I agree, but most of the time, there'll always be a better, simpler, more powerful option done with a power, equipment, technique or flatout combative skill and sheer ST.

That said...

How are your supah dupah laser guns making their players Invisible?
How are your supah dupah laser guns allowing them to Breath Underwater?
How are your supah dupah laser guns allowing the player to use Telepathy?
How are your supah dupah laser guns providing info about their targets/interests like Seeker/Scrying/Aura/History/Trace/Analyze Magic...?
How are your supah dupah laser guns keeping their players going like Minor Healing/Greater Healing/Awaken/Cure Disease/Remove Poison...?

Also...afaik Laser guns deals fire damage, and "Resist Fire" only requires 4 pre-req spells and with some points spent (or nice starting IQ+Magery) you could sustain it all day long and be immune to all the nice ohmighty lasers...

Also, if they're alien tech...ain't the players paying for "Unusual Background" (B.96) to have access to them?

If they get em during gameplay...how do they know to operate the guns? Where did they learn?
How do they maintain their sexy alien tech guns working and properly taken care?
Misfunction?
Power-cells? How long do lasers run before needing new cells? Where do they even buy new cells? Do they have to make em? Recharge em? When it's gone, it's gone?


This is just from the top of my head...but I assume you can get the idea I'm trying to get through!
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