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Old 02-21-2011, 12:15 PM   #21
Captain-Captain
 
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

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Originally Posted by combatmedic View Post
The Cyberpunk 2020 game has an interesting system for the psychological damage a human being might suffer as he replaces more and more of his natural body with machine parts. The loss is variable, and usually small for most modifications. It can really add up if a character gets carried away with alterations. If a character loses too much of his humanity, he might become violently psychotic, delusional, severely alienated from society, etc. It isn't just an 'I go crazy and shoot people' thing, although that is a risk! Therapy and pre-modification screening may help, but the risk is still there for heavily 'borged out characters.

How would you guys model something like that in GURPS?
First, make sure tattooes do not count towards humanity loss. It only takes one bit of sheer nonsense such as BODY INK TURNS MAN INTO RAVING KILLERl to make someone refuse to voluntarily give that suspension of disbelief crucial to the acceptance of any fiction.

Same with any cosmetic alterations like grafted on body armor. In Shadowrun you have a mystical attribute to oppose such things, Essence being fictional and mystical can thus have any damn properties you want it to have.

Cyberpunk 2020 don't do the mystical too well. So we're stuck with the psuedo science involved with cyberwear. Cyberwear bascially has the premise that you and your machinery interface through your nervous system and that the psychosis effects are largely feedback/rejection issues.

Items that do nerve interfaces cause cyberpsychosis, which should in GURPS be at least temporarily mitigatable by higher quality machines and/or advanced medicines.

On the other hand, nothing stops you from defining a nerve interfacing device as being inherently addictive...
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:16 PM   #22
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

Way I do it for Shadowrun instead of Essence, keeping in mind that I only charge points for implants at character creation:

All procedures have a difficulty associated with them, Simple through Radical, from UT207. They also have a modifier to the surgery roll dependent on the difficulty of the procedure.

When a character gets a new implant, they have to make both a HT and Will roll, modified by the modifier to the surgery roll for the procedure, the quality of the clinic the procedure is being performed at (usually "best equipment for the TL" for an actual hospital, less for a boozy street doc's chop shop), +1 if the person installing the cyber got a critical success on their Surgery roll, and further modifiers for the "grade" of cyberware being installed (-2 for cheap, +2 for expensive). As usual if the total modifiers are over +10, don't bother to roll. Note that some clinics are a TL higher for the purposes of determining the implants available, the difficulty of the procedure, and the equipment bonus they provide, but these clinics are generally at least 10x more expensive than regular ones and require special connections to even be able to schedule a procedure.

Succeeding on the HT and Will rolls indicates there were no adverse effects from getting an implant. Crit success on either halves recovery time for the procedure. Failure on a roll results in a physical or mental quirk respectively, critical failure results in a -5 point physical or mental disadvantage. If the person getting the implant already has a implant-induced quirk or disad that might be relevant to the newly installed implant (they got Post-Combat Shakes from a botched HT roll on a reflex booster procedure and then failed another HT roll on another nueral implant, frex), failure bumps the quirk up to a disad, a -5 point disad up to a -10 point disad, etc. A critical failure bumps an existing quirk or disad up two levels. If the new implant isn't really related to a previously existing quirk or disad from a botched procedure (if instead of a nueral implant the new procedure was a smart tattoo in the previous example, frex) the person getting the implant just gets a new physical or mental quirk or disad related to the type of the new implant instead.

End result: People who get even relatively large amounts of fairly cutting edge implants at spendy exclusive clinics have virtually no chance of side-effects due to implants. People who get cheap implants from an alcoholic street doc operating out of the back of a stolen ambulance are virtually guaranteed to end up physical and mental wrecks if they get enough work done.

If you want to tweak it so that side-effects are even more rare, double the positive modifiers for the procedure on the HT and Will rolls and halve the negative modifiers.

Oh, and if you DO get mental or physical quirks/disads I allow them to be fixed using the "crippling injuries" rules with Surgery/Psychology but that costs money as well, takes fair amounts of time, and saddles you with even worse disads if the doc/psychologist crit fails.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
2020 cyberpsychosis is statistically inevitable with only a small variable in when onset occurs.
How measurable it is depends a lot on the game rules - in 2020 people "knew" their empathy stat and could gauge the progression, and knew roughly where the limits were. Up to that point the damage was minimal.

Even still, I would compare it to drug use if anything. People KNOW that they will be socially pariahed and that it could lead to jail or death, yet they still do it in droves. With cyberpunk cybernetics the risks are less and the gain is substantially more - for a soldier or cop that arm may save your life. For a construction worker or technician, that arm may result in a substantial pay increase.
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

Long post; apologies...

I created this version of Cyberpsychosis for my Cyberworld game (that one of these days, I'll actually get around to running...) It hasn't been playtested or balanced yet, so standard warnings, grain-o-salt, yadda-yadda:

================

Cyberpsychosis -35/-40/-50 points

You suffer from a specialized form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that only affects those with cybernetic implants. Specifically, you suffer from a variety of mental conditions specifically linked to the trauma of the implantation of your bionics. Cyberpsycho episodes are typically triggered by stress, and can result in unpredictable behavior. Those who know you're a cyberpsycho react to you at -2, except for fellow cyberpsychos, who accept you as a member of a weird fraternity and react to you at +1. Some big city police departments have units specially equipped for dealing with cyberpsychos and the problems they cause.

Cyberpsychosis: Bad Temper (9) [-15]; Reputation (as above) [-5]; and -15 points of Mental disads from the following list: Alcoholism [-15]; Amnesia (partial) [-10]; Berserk [-10*]; Callous [-5]; Chronic Depression [-15*]; Confused [-10*]; Flashbacks [varies]; Impulsiveness [-10*]; Light Sleeper [-5]; Loner [-5*]; Manic-Depressive [-20]; Nightmares [-5*]; On the Edge [-15*]; Paranoia [-10]; Phantom Voices [-5 to -15]; Short Attention Span [-10*]. (Accessibility; only those with cybernetics, -40%). -35 points.

Level 2 Cyberpsychosis: As above, except Bad Temper (6) [-20] and -20 points of Mental disads. -40 points.

Level 3 Cyberpsychosis: As base Cyberpsychosis, except replace Bad Temper with Berserk (6) [-20]; and -30 points of Mental Disads from the list. (Accessibility; only those with cybernetics, -40%). -50 points.

Some jurisdictions require the registration of cyberpsychos’ placement in court-mandated therapy programs. Basic cyberpsychosis may go undiagnosed, as the cocktail of neuroses can disguise themselves as conditions of living in a fast-paced urban environment. At level 2, the condition may become more apparent as a mental condition rather than a social one. In many places, Level 3 sufferers are whom most people think of when they hear the word cyberpsychosis; they are the ones featured on the news after causing several violent deaths or wholesale property destruction. As a rule, local law enforcement units take them down hard, and lock them away. This removes a PC from the game for the duration of the treatment, which involves a combination of intense therapy and the removal of most if not all bionics.

Special Limitation
Mitigator: At TL9+, treatments for cyberpsychosis are available in the form of psychotherapy and a multi-drug cocktail intended to deal with the psychological and physiological effects. The effects of cyberpsychosis are not cured, only arrested for as long as the treatment is continued or until the cybernetics are removed and for 2d months afterward. Treatment cost: $12,600/month.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:08 PM   #25
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
First, I must confess I'm not a big fan of Cybernetics Eat Your Soul, but a few ideas I do have:
Yeah, but in the Shadowrun setting, that's very close to literal, souls are objectively real and if you replace too much of the flesh, past a certain point the soul leaves the body and you die.

I actually find the Shadowrun concept of cyberpsychosis believable, within certain limits, even absent the supernatural component which is most definitely present in Shadowrun. The body most definitely does affect the mind, and vice versa. Perceptions and attitudes change as the body does, though not in always easily predictable ways.

It depends on how invasive and how different the implants are. On one end of the scale you have Steve Austin and Jaime Summers, their bionics apparently were indistinguishable from normal function except when they turned on the superpower. When Steve wasn't scanning infra-red or using his built-in telescope, apparently his vision was just like anybody else, apparently they could still feel sensations just like the rest of us, as long as the machinery was working right.

(Though one neat bit from the old TV shows was that observant people and AIs could recognize them as strange because their bionic limbs didn't sweat after exertion.)

At the other extreme is clunky, obviously artificial implants that in some worlds seem like something intended to be a torture for the user.

Replace the heart with a cyberheart, for example, and some of your glands with controlled machines that pump out hormones at different times, amounts, and ratios, and your mental outlook will be different.

Not many people realize that there are a lot of nerves and nerve tissue connections in the intestines, the term 'gut feeling' may well have a physiological basis. Modify the digestion and you might modify the mind in some subtle ways.

If the opposite sex (for most people) reacts differently to you because of the mods, that'll hit harder, too, for many.

Do cyber-implants provide the same kind of sensation as the natural senses? Yeah, your cybervision can see x100 magnification and infra-red and has polarization, but can it makes out all the normal colors, do things and people look 'right' with it? If not, that'll matter. Your cybernose might be able to detect trace gases and filter out poisons, but can you still small a flower or bacon cooking? That sort of thing is relevant to this.

Does your armored skin 'feel' right, to others? Can you detect the same tactile sensations as before? You might be able to read the date on a penny by touch with your cyberfingers, but if you run your hand down yoru girlfriend or boyfriend's arm, does their skin feel the same as before to you? That matters, and this stuff is likely to add up, psychologically.

And of course anything that directly alters how the brain operates, any sort of brain implant, might potentially make changes. Subtle changes to brain chemistry over time could have big effects down the road.

I don't think there's any super-simple way to model it, Shadowrun does it rather abstractly. In GURPS, I might use a combination of things. For ex, if a person is so modified that s/he looks significantly different than a normal human, people will react differently, which after a while will affect him, so I might rule that s/he has a -1 or -2 (depending) on social influence rolls for things like savoir-faire and fast-talk. If a person can no longer feel pain in the normal sense, then I might decide that after a while he loses some empathy with others, and impose a nasty quirk or minor OPH.

I would make sure the player had warning that things were happening, and then if s/he kept on modifying, I might eventually impose something like this:

Under conditions of stress or <fill in the blank trigger>, the character must roll vs. Will or enter psychotic state, in which case the GM temporarily takes control and plays the character briefly with whatever major mental disads or compulsions or inhibitions the psychosis produces. I'd be fair about it, using dice rolls mostly to decide what the character did under the psychotic state, but if things have gotten that bad it's gonna be bad, things like sadism, berserk, pyromania, compulsive violent rampages, etc seem likely.

Subtle changes probably wouldn't do this. As someone noted, we don't see people with fillings and pacemakers go on rampages. Likewise, something simple like an implant communicator or a drug gland alone probably wouldn't be a problem. But if the character has artificial eyes, artificial ears, a mechanical heart, glands pumping out hormones in unnatural mixes, a heart rate that stays constant regardless of emotional state, is ten times stronger than normal but can't feel subtle textures, and scares children when s/he walks down the street...
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Yeah, but in the Shadowrun setting, that's very close to literal, souls are objectively real and if you replace too much of the flesh, past a certain point the soul leaves the body and you die.
Yes, except getting the same cyber made out of cooler stuff (bone lacing made out of plastic v. titanium, frex) eats more of your soul. Some of it is a game balance mechanic that's not necessary in a point-based system. It's up to the individual how much to keep and what to throw.

I added the mental and physical disads because I felt like that was more in keeping with the original cyberpunk inspiration, and in addition to my earlier post I also give players Magic Resistance based on how much of their flesh they've replaced. Basically around 1 per extremity and 2 for an entire torso. Bonelacing or Wired Reflexes might give one, but a datajack or smartgun link wouldn't give any.

I don't like the "you have this much essence remaining" aspect of SR because it seems too quantified. Instead I prefer each operation having a chance of pulling you farther away from humanity and more towards something other. Almost like the taint mechanics for contract magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Under conditions of stress or <fill in the blank trigger>, the character must roll vs. Will or enter psychotic state, in which case the GM temporarily takes control and plays the character briefly with whatever major mental disads or compulsions or inhibitions the psychosis produces. I'd be fair about it, using dice rolls mostly to decide what the character did under the psychotic state, but if things have gotten that bad it's gonna be bad, things like sadism, berserk, pyromania, compulsive violent rampages, etc seem likely.
I prefer slower slides into alienation and apathy as opposed to sudden psychotic breaks.
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Old 02-22-2011, 09:03 AM   #27
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

I like the idea of certain cybernetics eating your soul:

A cybernetic arm or leg might not change your personality, but fiddling with the brain would cause all sorts of problems. If nanobots, frex, are optimizing your brain to increase IQ or reaction time, they may rewriting your personality. They are just doing what they are supposed to. It isn't their fault that you are an inefficiently produced biological creature. They are just machines.

So suddenly you no longer like chocolate.

And of course, if this is common, then people will shun cybernetics that affect the brain.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

Meh. Cyberpsychosis, which doesn't show up at all in the literature on which the games are supposedly modelled, was clearly introduced as a game-balance measure to stop rich characters completely outclassing everyone else.

There's a much simpler approach in GURPS: require point expenditure for cybernetics.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:24 PM   #29
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

It had this perverse effect in CP2020 (and 2013 for that matter). If you wanted to minmax to get a lot of cyberware you'd buy your Empathy up to 10 to start (you could Minimize Body since you were going to replace most of it anyway). This had the effect of the characters most likely psychologically to want to avoid cybernetics being played by players who wanted to cyber them up the most. It also made, IME, immature Munchkins gravitate towards players they weren't equipped to play. One of my High School games exploded because an EMP 10 character randomly killed a cat for no good reason and I pointed out he shouldn't be able to do that in character, but if he insisted I'd dock him Humanity for it.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:47 PM   #30
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Default Re: cyberpsychosis

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Originally Posted by RogerBW View Post
Meh. Cyberpsychosis, which doesn't show up at all in the literature on which the games are supposedly modelled,
True, but it probably should have been. I find it quite a believable concept, unless the cybernetics are very sophisticated.
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