Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2018, 03:52 AM   #71
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm pretty sure that with a hardness of BHN 460-544, this abrasion resistant 'AR500' steel is not going to be easily shaped into anything other than Solid plates or, at most, very gently curving ones.
You form the steel while it's red hot, and thus somewhat soft, and then cool it (hopefully in the correct way, otherwise it'll give much less protection than you expect).

Quote:
I actually don't know if there are steel alloys with DR this high available today which can be manufactured as articulated plate armour, as opposed to just plate inserts of high DR ballistic protection that you use to protect the most important 40% to 60% of your Torso hit location (using up to four plates, front chest, back and two sides).
If you're willing to go to the rouble of serious heat-treating there almost certainly are, but forming then treating it will be damned expensive.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 04:02 AM   #72
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But there has to be some reason actual TL8 vehicular armour is made from different steel alloys, if it's made from steel. The practical difficulties involved in making stuff other than Solid sheets of flat or gently curving plates out of such high hardness steel alloys might be one reason. I was sort of hoping that there might be other reasons, as well.
When it comes to vehicle armour, one reason is that things that have compound curves tend to be cast, and these steels might well not cast well. There's also a matter of expense - a steel that's very nearly as good but noticeably cheaper has an obvious attraction when each vehicle will have tons of the stuff on it.

Also, vehicle armour often has to has holes cut in it for vision blocks, aerials, wiring, & etc. This steel may not react well to this, or might be too expensive to cut holes in.

Another thought - it's performance may simply not scale up with thickness.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 04:02 AM   #73
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yep I think you are right, without specific interest in the project overriding it, any involved companies are going to looking out for themselves and covering their backs as their primary concern.

This kind of project has the potential risk of being open ended and if the customer stars acting like that it gets more and more likely that the $2m just bought more then $2m worth of hassle and grief. Some business just isn't worth having, (at least not without having the T&C's and indemnities locked down as much as is reasonably possible and the control of the money)
Most likely, any company Vargas turned to eventually came to deeply regret their involvement.

Except, possibly, if Vargas eventually came to form an internal team of designers, who might contract out specific armour pieces made out of some advanced materials without explaining what they need it for. In that case, they could probably deal with pretty much any custom fabrication facility without too many problems. After all, ordering curved bands of extremely high strength steel alloys or titanium composites to certain, very specific specifications, shouldn't be much of a problem anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I may be reading the article wrong but I think theoretically one of the big advantage would be someone working with steel wouldn't need to do teh process themselves but could get the steel that had been processed and then work with it relatively easily.
That seemed to be what I understood, as well, but I'm not sure. It may be the other way around, i.e. work with normal steel and then treat it afterwards.

In either case, sounds amazing for what Vargas wants.

What sort of real-world background would someone need to be able to figure out how to perform this process, after buying the necessary tools?

What kind of education, trade school or apprenticeship would be best for someone whom you planned to put in charge of running a garage workshop doing this?

What about his assistants and staff?

What kind of skills, in GURPS terms?

Metallurgy? Blacksmithing? Mechanic? Armoury (Vehicle Armour)? Machinist? Engineering (insert speciality)?

All of the above? Perhaps also other skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
However the article also seems to say that you could start this process up in a garage with smaller bit of processing kit for approx $300k

From the article:

"Another factor in Flash's favour is an extremely low capital cost of entry for companies looking to get involved in the manufacturing process.

"The entry point for Flash equipment is about US$300K and a one car garage, while large format equipment would only cost $5M to generate about $75M in annual sales," Cola tells us. "Imagine if 100s of fabrication shops around the country could make higher performing steel than the Big Steel Industry can in their $400M seven-story tall furnaces."
"
Yes, but is that what you can do now or what he invites us to imagine will become the case once more companies get involved in manufacturing flash bainite steel?

In case the $300,000 figure is realistic for actually getting all the tools you'd need to be able to apply this treatment to the individual pieces of a plate harness, I imagine Vargas might spring for it.

If only a little more cash would get him something able to handle pieces large enough to be useful in armouring pick-up trucks and other vehicles, he could even justify using some of his organisational capital and operating funds to get this capability.

Yes, it's possible to just use thicker welded plates of soft steels to get the required protection (against M2 .50 BMG machine guns), but weight issues and subsequent problems with driving at any speed are real concerns with the garage-modified armoured trucks that the cartels use as APCs. Not to mention that low-profile internal armour is becoming more popular, to avoid police and military attention.

The cartels will sometimes try to use commercial solutions for this, which tends to actually be plates of AR500 steel, or a number of proprietory steels with more-or-less the same properties, but as it turns out, Alpine, Armormax, Bulldog, Griffin, Lenco, Orion, Streit and any number of other companies are loath to suffer the negative publicity associated with having their products turn up in shootouts with the police, even in Mexico, so a reliable supply of professionally installed low-profile plates is a perennial problem.

Vargas could probably save money in the long run if he could manufacture his own armoured plates to install in vehicles. Even if their performance was just similar to typical commercial vehicle armour steels, like AR500 or MIL-A-46100, it would be worth it.

If it could actually improve on commercial-grade TL8 armour steel for all their armoured trucks, home protection and APC needs, it would be amazing and easily worth spending $5,000,000+ a year on tools, salaries and supplies to keep running. Any steel plate production capability that was more than Vargas' (relatively) small group of elite enforcers required could probably be used by his strategic partners in the Sinaloa cartel.

And the fact that the equipment and someone who could use it would be useful for his private toy project would, of course, provide much better motivation for him to actually make this happen than merely because it makes good economic sense.

Of course, any personnel connected to this who are useful mostly or even only for Vargas' private toys, as well as the use of the tools for such purposes, would effectively be paid for out of his private household budget, as even when no money is changing hands, it would have an opportunity cost to spend part of the time on making archaic armour rather than paramilitary and security vehicle armour useful to the entire Sinaloa cartel.

In essence, Vargas' household budget would diminish a little, because he was not using all his resources to make a profit, but using a part of them to play with expensive toys. But even so, it sounds like the 'non-useful' part of this could fit within his $2,500,000 maximum budget for his 'Project Black Knight'.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 04:10 AM   #74
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
You form the steel while it's red hot, and thus somewhat soft, and then cool it (hopefully in the correct way, otherwise it'll give much less protection than you expect).
Indeed. From what I can find out, forming the extremely high-hardness steels into the complex shapes required for medieval-esque body armour would not be technically impossible, but certainly impractical without vastly greater resources than even a drug lord is prepared to spend on his personal toys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
If you're willing to go to the rouble of serious heat-treating there almost certainly are, but forming then treating it will be damned expensive.
What do you think about the bainite flash treatment Dan Howard mentioned?

Likely to work as advertised?

Any predictable unforeseen disadvantages?

How practical for a project like this, i.e. building armour which looks medieval-esque, but provides rifle protection over as much of the body as can be done without making it any clumsier than the best historical field plate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
When it comes to vehicle armour, one reason is that things that have compound curves tend to be cast, and these steels might well not cast well. There's also a matter of expense - a steel that's very nearly as good but noticeably cheaper has an obvious attraction when each vehicle will have tons of the stuff on it.

Also, vehicle armour often has to has holes cut in it for vision blocks, aerials, wiring, & etc. This steel may not react well to this, or might be too expensive to cut holes in.

Another thought - it's performance may simply not scale up with thickness.
I discovered that AR500 steels and other steels that appear to have material properties so similar as to be identical in game terms, actually are used to armour vehicles. MBTs, IFVs, APCs and up-armoured trucks of various sorts do use this kind of steel for certain parts, though obviously the most advanced tank armour is using more complex composites and not merely any kind of steel alloys. AR500 and its cousins also turn out to be used to make plates for armouring limousines, executive cars, luxury SUVs, etc. And for various similar applications in banks, security companies and the like.

AR500 and similar alloys are technically considered to be specialised for protection against HVPs (High-Velocity Penetrators), i.e. small arms fire, which suggests to me that my idea about giving them slightly higher DR against piercing (and probably cutting, for consistency) than other threats, like crushing, impaling and burning for the various forms of anti-armour threats, would not be too out of line.

Anywhere you want your protection in other shapes than flat or very gently curved plates, though, working with these high-hardness steels is more trouble than it is usually worth, even if they would technically give better DRs, especially against APHC .50 BMG or maybe anti-personnel auto-cannon fire, than the alternative.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 02-09-2018 at 04:37 AM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 05:00 AM   #75
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Most likely, any company Vargas turned to eventually came to deeply regret their involvement.

Except, possibly, if Vargas eventually came to form an internal team of designers, who might contract out specific armour pieces made out of some advanced materials without explaining what they need it for. In that case, they could probably deal with pretty much any custom fabrication facility without too many problems. After all, ordering curved bands of extremely high strength steel alloys or titanium composites to certain, very specific specifications, shouldn't be much of a problem anywhere..
Yep I agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
That seemed to be what I understood, as well, but I'm not sure. It may be the other way around, i.e. work with normal steel and then treat it afterwards.
yes re-reading you may be right (I think I got confused when they talked about using tubing of the stuff to them make larger car components, but it may have just been the tubing that had come out the process was just incorporated into larger items). EDIT: although that said the test were about cold pressing this stuff into complex shapes after the process, so maybe?

It's stuff like:

Another major manufacturer "that makes 10 million vehicles per year," according to Cola, tested Flash-processed steel on a structural/safety component of a car that is 3 mm thick and 3 lb (1.4 kg) in weight in its current form. Using the flash treatment, a part was created that weighs 2 lb (0.9 kg) at 2 mm thick, and passes all the same tests – and the OEM estimated it could be made at a cost savings.

which if true (and transferable) is pretty damn good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In either case, sounds amazing for what Vargas wants.

What sort of real-world background would someone need to be able to figure out how to perform this process, after buying the necessary tools?

What kind of education, trade school or apprenticeship would be best for someone whom you planned to put in charge of running a garage workshop doing this?

What about his assistants and staff?

What kind of skills, in GURPS terms?

Metallurgy? Blacksmithing? Mechanic? Armoury (Vehicle Armour)? Machinist? Engineering (insert speciality)?

All of the above? Perhaps also other skills?
OK to be honest to actually run the machine on a daily basis i;d say not many. But what I would say is some of those skill would likely come in when it came to trouble shooting and unforeseen issues (of which there are always some), setting for precise end result and knowing what effects you want for your end result (i.e there's not going to be setting for "best possible armour grade for plate harness" on the controls.

Basically actually running the machine probably don't need much skill, but you going to what them in reserve to:

A. set the machine
B. check the results
C. Make adjustments to your process


However what that does mean is you can probably get away with getting in such specialist skill sets on an advisory hire basis rather than needing them on site at all time to actually run or oversee the machine. Ultimately while all the skills you mention may theoretically touch on the use of this machine, I don't think you'd te full range of them to actually run it day to day.

Of course the more you vary what your doing the more flexible your staff will need to be and that tends to require a broader and more in depth knowledge to support.


This just the running of the machine though, you have to actually put together the stuff it spits out. But again If were talking only a few end uses that makes it easier.

So yeah You might need access to some of those skill initially, and maybe have them on call for solving issues, I don't think you'll need those who are actually working it to have mush more than being reasonably intelligent


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yes, but is that what you can do now or what he invites us to imagine will become the case once more companies get involved in manufacturing flash bainite steel?

In case the $300,000 figure is realistic for actually getting all the tools you'd need to be able to apply this treatment to the individual pieces of a plate harness, I imagine Vargas might spring for it.

If only a little more cash would get him something able to handle pieces large enough to be useful in armouring pick-up trucks and other vehicles, he could even justify using some of his organisational capital and operating funds to get this capability.

Yes, it's possible to just use thicker welded plates of soft steels to get the required protection (against M2 .50 BMG machine guns), but weight issues and subsequent problems with driving at any speed are real concerns with the garage-modified armoured trucks that the cartels use as APCs. Not to mention that low-profile internal armour is becoming more popular, to avoid police and military attention.

The cartels will sometimes try to use commercial solutions for this, which tends to actually be plates of AR500 steel, or a number of proprietory steels with more-or-less the same properties, but as it turns out, Alpine, Armormax, Bulldog, Griffin, Lenco, Orion, Streit and any number of other companies are loath to suffer the negative publicity associated with having their products turn up in shootouts with the police, even in Mexico, so a reliable supply of professionally installed low-profile plates is a perennial problem.

Vargas could probably save money in the long run if he could manufacture his own armoured plates to install in vehicles. Even if their performance was just similar to typical commercial vehicle armour steels, like AR500 or MIL-A-46100, it would be worth it.

If it could actually improve on commercial-grade TL8 armour steel for all their armoured trucks, home protection and APC needs, it would be amazing and easily worth spending $5,000,000+ a year on tools, salaries and supplies to keep running. Any steel plate production capability that was more than Vargas' (relatively) small group of elite enforcers required could probably be used by his strategic partners in the Sinaloa cartel.

And the fact that the equipment and someone who could use it would be useful for his private toy project would, of course, provide much better motivation for him to actually make this happen than merely because it makes good economic sense.

Of course, any personnel connected to this who are useful mostly or even only for Vargas' private toys, as well as the use of the tools for such purposes, would effectively be paid for out of his private household budget, as even when no money is changing hands, it would have an opportunity cost to spend part of the time on making archaic armour rather than paramilitary and security vehicle armour useful to the entire Sinaloa cartel.

In essence, Vargas' household budget would diminish a little, because he was not using all his resources to make a profit, but using a part of them to play with expensive toys. But even so, it sounds like the 'non-useful' part of this could fit within his $2,500,000 maximum budget for his 'Project Black Knight'.
Well I got the impression from the article that the equipment was available now. TBH my impression of the article was basically "you know that new wonder process* that we mentioned earlier, well it actually look like it might not only work, but also be a practical and flexible enough process to use in a range of industries and business models".

So yeah at first glance it looks absolutely spot on for Vagas' needs!

And yeah I agree if it's actually used to manufacture armour plate for vehicles and other uses and as a side line spit out plate armour pieces then it becomes the dog wagging the tail not the tail wagging the dog in terms of resource costs vs. return.


FWIW that article was from 2015, this is the PR page of Flash Bainite (so only good news of course) however it still seems to be going well!

(and a link to the article it cites from July 17)

To me the standout thing here seems to be that it's a flexible technology while keeping the advantage it offers.




*and as DanHoward intimated in his post, potential Wonder processes and materials being reported on can come up, but ones that actually pan out not just to live up to their early technical promises but also commercial promises are rather rarerer!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-09-2018 at 05:58 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 05:40 AM   #76
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Ballistic/SCA Arming Doublets and Underlayers

Here is something that can be worn under any kind of armour eventually emerges. Mind you, Vargas and maybe even some of his retinue would certainly replace the Improved Kevlar with Ballistic Polymer tailored to their bodies, which would probably require Stylish, as they would have to obtain it from some custom-maker like Miguel Caballero.

In case Improved Kevlar** is so much harder to get or to work with than regular Kevlar that it is not practical to have their maquiladora ladies work in it, I could see the sicarios replacing the Improved Kevlar part with just Kevlar. This would be heavier for the DR of protection against knives and swords that they want, but also give slightly better piercing and cutting protection, due to the greater mass of material.

At these thicknesses, obviously, there is no actual ballistic protection, no matter what kind of flexible armour material is used, but this would include straps and provisos for attaching the actual protective armour on top. Those who could afford it would also get their arming doublet tailored to fit them while wearing cooling vests underneath.

---

Arming Doublet / Gambeson
Torso and Arms (10.5 sf coverage)
Improved Kevlar DR 3/1 (CW 0.08; CM $120); Fabric; Stylish (+1 CF)** = 2.64 lbs.; $633.6.
Nylon (actually a placeholder for TL8 material that would make good padding) DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.5; CM $6; counts as CW 0.325; CM $30); Impact-Absorbing; Stylish (+3 CF) = 0.853125 lbs.; $102.375.
Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric; Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.785 lbs.; $114.24.

This is a layered jacket or doublet that covers the torso and arms, made from an inner layer of TL8 cloth padding, a thin layer of para-aramids and an outer layer of cloth that appears period accurate for a gambeson. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight.

I've allowed a clothing-thick (1/4 CW and CM) layer of some hypothetical impact-absorbing fabric, combined with a layer of clothing-thick actual linen or similar, to combine with the ballistic fabric to give it +1 DR only against Crushing. Actually, considering that this weighs about the same as a historical padded doublet with DR 1 against all threats and it incorporates para-aramids that would give DR 6/2 at a similar weight if it were only made from them, I'm going to simplify and give DR 2 against all other damage types than pi and cut.

Final Cost and Weight rounded off.

TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don
8 --- Gambeson --- --- - Torso, Arms --- --- 3/2* --- $850 --- 5.3 lbs. --- 15

---

A cheaper version, more easily available to sicarios, with their limited organisational resources and always less cash than all the things they want.

'Maquiladora' Gambeson
Torso and Arms (10.5 sf coverage)
Kevlar DR 2/1 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Fabric = 2.1 lbs.; $184.
Rubber DR 1 (CW 0.45; CM $5); Optimised Fabric = 3.78 lbs.; $37.8.
Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric = 1.785 lbs.; $27.56.

This is a layered jacket or doublet that covers the torso and arms, made from an inner layer of removable rubber padding, a thin layer of kevlar and an outer layer of cloth that appears more or less acceptable for a gambeson. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight.

Final Cost and Weight rounded off.

TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don
8 --- Gambeson --- --- - Torso, Arms --- --- 3/2* --- $250 --- 7.7 lbs. --- 30

---

And here are breeches that would be suitable to use for sparring, as well as being appropriate as the underlayer for rigid armour, like greaves and poleyns, attached to it.

Arming Breeches, light cloth
Legs (7 sf coverage)
Kevlar DR 3/1 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 1.68 lbs.; $268.8.
Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric, Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.19 lbs.; $80.64.

These are breeches made from kevlar fabric, with a fairly thin outer layer of cloth designed to appear to be authentic medieval style quilted padding. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight.

Final Cost and Weight rounded off.

TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don
8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 3/1* --- $350 --- 3.9 lbs. --- 20

---

Arming Breeches, 'leather'
Legs (7 sf coverage)
Kevlar DR 6/2 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 3.36 lbs.; $537.6.
Leather DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.9; CM $10); Optimised Fabric, Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.26 lbs.; $100.8.

These are breeches made from a fairly thick kevlar fabric, with a fairly thin outer layer of leather designed to appear to be armour-grade leather. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight.

Final Cost and Weight rounded off.

TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don
8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 6/2* --- $440 --- 4.7 lbs. --- 25

---

Ballistic Leather Breeches
Legs (7 sf coverage)
Kevlar DR 8/2 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 4.48 lbs.; $716.8.
Leather DR 1 (CW 0.9; CM $10); Scales, Stylish (+3 CF) = 6.93 lbs.; $221.76.

These are SCA 'leather' armour breeches made from even thicker kevlar fabric, enough to stop .38 Special at point blank and even 9x19mm at longer ranges, with an outer layer of finely made leather scale armour. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight.

Final Cost and Weight rounded off.

TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don
8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 9/3* --- $940 --- 11.5 lbs. --- 30

*Flexible. Use the higher DR only against piercing and cutting attacks. The Ballistic Leather Breeches have a further -1 DR against crushing attacks.
**As anything that counts as Improved Kevlar is almost certainly proprietory and trademarked, getting a supply of such materials to have their maquiladora seastresses custom-tailor is probably going to be more difficult than with older para-aramids. I've added an arbitrary +1 CF, not as much as full Stylish, to represent this. Depending on advice, I may increase it.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 02-09-2018 at 08:04 AM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 07:22 AM   #77
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
yes re-reading you may be right (I think I got confused when they talked about using tubing of the stuff to them make larger car components, but it may have just been the tubing that had come out the process was just incorporated into larger items). EDIT: although that said the test were about cold pressing this stuff into complex shapes after the process, so maybe?
Well, I'm leaning toward Vargas getting the tools needed, but it would surely help to know more about the process, you know, in case the PCs wander into the workshop.

This seems like something that might interest O'Toole's player, who is an engineer (albeit software and electrical?/electronics?/something having to do with complicated electronic stuff... or was it fluid dynamics?). He likes the theory of building stuff, even if his actual work happens in front of a computer which does some kind of modelling which makes my eyes glaze so badly I can't remember what he's modelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
It's stuff like:

Another major manufacturer "that makes 10 million vehicles per year," according to Cola, tested Flash-processed steel on a structural/safety component of a car that is 3 mm thick and 3 lb (1.4 kg) in weight in its current form. Using the flash treatment, a part was created that weighs 2 lb (0.9 kg) at 2 mm thick, and passes all the same tests – and the OEM estimated it could be made at a cost savings.

which if true (and transferable) is pretty damn good!
Indeed. I'll use the stats for 'Ultra-Strength Steel' from 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' without adding any extra markup for it not being a mass production armour.

As I'll already have accounted for R&D costs and setting up the tools to make it, this seems fair. Of course, it will have to use Stylish, which pushes the Cost up into the stratosphere anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK to be honest to actually run the machine on a daily basis i;d say not many. But what I would say is some of those skill would likely come in when it came to trouble shooting and unforeseen issues (of which there are always some), setting for precise end result and knowing what effects you want for your end result (i.e there's not going to be setting for "best possible armour grade for plate harness" on the controls.

Basically actually running the machine probably don't need much skill, but you going to what them in reserve to:

A. set the machine
B. check the results
C. Make adjustments to your process
Ok, but they are going to be setting up the entire process in a workshop, without anyone being allowed there other than people they trust.

What kind of person does Vargas need to handle everything? By which I mean, know what kind of specialists to consult, know which kind of help to hire, how to set everything up, how to apply the process to non-standard applications, etc.?

He's not going to spend $300,000 to $5,000,000 setting up the capability without someone he trusts overseeing each step. Even leaving aside his personal toy armour, if he's investing in the capability to better armour his trucks and APCs, that's a strategically vital resource. The person responsible for it will be a valued specialist, important to his little cartel.

At this level of funding and because he's been trying to get 'Project Black Knight' armour built ever since 2011 or so, sending a bright young associate to college or trade school is not out of the question. Nor is finding someone with the kind of background that would allow him to default much of his and learn the rest over months of trial and error, and forming a relationship with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
However what that does mean is you can probably get away with getting in such specialist skill sets on an advisory hire basis rather than needing them on site at all time to actually run or oversee the machine. Ultimately while all the skills you mention may theoretically touch on the use of this machine, I don't think you'd te full range of them to actually run it day to day.

Of course the more you vary what your doing the more flexible your staff will need to be and that tends to require a broader and more in depth knowledge to support.


This just the running of the machine though, you have to actually put together the stuff it spits out. But again If were talking only a few end uses that makes it easier.

So yeah You might need access to some of those skill initially, and maybe have them on call for solving issues, I don't think you'll need those who are actually working it to have mush more than being reasonably intelligent
The people working there during day-to-day operations can presumably have Machinist, yes. There might need to be an overseer present with skills like Blacksmithing or Armoury (Vehicular Armour), as making armour plate to the highest commercial specifications doesn't seem like entirely mundane labour, devoid of complications beyond those applicable when your daily work is making spare parts from common steels.

I don't think you can make body armour with it unless you have people with Armoury (Body Armour), or more likely an optional specialisation thereof, probably initially defaulted from Blacksmith or Machinist or learned by practical application from principles of Metallurgy or some kind of Engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well I got the impression from the article that the equipment was available now. TBH my impression of the article was basically "you know that new wonder process* that we mentioned earlier, well it actually look like it might not only work, but also be a practical and flexible enough process to use in a range of industries and business models".

So yeah at first glance it looks absolutely spot on for Vagas' needs!
I'll use it, unless convinced otherwise by someone who knows more than I do about metallurgy, fabrication, steelmaking or materials science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
And yeah I agree if it's actually used to manufacture armour plate for vehicles and other uses and as a side line spit out plate armour pieces then it becomes the dog wagging the tail not the tail wagging the dog in terms of resource costs vs. return.
Yeah. Though I imagine Vargas lacks the nitty-gritty interest in business matters to expand the production as he, perhaps, should do, in order to market improved vehicle armour plates to all cartels allied to Sinaloa.

He's probably still using a single workshop with limited production capabilities, not having bothered to set up a larger legitimate business which could serve as cover for an expanding production line. It's probably set up at some palatial ranch, in a huge garage, in order for his toy designers to be accessible to him.

The truck detailing is probably done somewhere else, if that's practical, with completed armour plates being transported to the mechanics who install them in the stolen cars, at the same time as changing their appearance, plates and doing work on the suspension, etc.

Then again, Vargas has probably only had his current set-up for 12-18 months, with the first experiments with the flash bainite process occuring about two years ago. So maybe expansion is a possibility for the future, but not something he's bothered to do yet.

For all that Vargas is mostly interested in living a life as close to an einherji in Valhalla as possible, there are people in the Caballero Templarios with much more business sense, organisational acumen and accounting skill. Vargas just doesn't listen to these people as much as they would want, for one thing, because they tend to be less interested in the things he likes and not tough/crazy enough to earn his admiration.

After all, some of his people used to be middle-managers, and even quite specialised professionals of Administration, Merchant and similar skills, for La Familia Michoacán and now defunct parent cartel, the original Caballero Templarios. This would have been at a time when these cartels had revenues of several billion dollars a year, from a very diversified portfolio, some of it legal businesses being run with illegal methods and muscle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
FWIW that article was from 2015, this is the PR page of Flash Bainite (so only good news of course) however it still seems to be going well!

(and a link to the article it cites from July 17)
So having started to set up this sort of capability in 2015 seems suitable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
To me the standout thing here seems to be that it's a flexible technology while keeping the advantage it offers.

*and as DanHoward intimated in his post, potential Wonder processes and materials being reported on can come up, but ones that actually pan out not just to live up to their early technical promises but also commercial promises are rather rarerer!
Indeed.

Which is why I'll only use this if no one knowledgable comes along and points out the no doubt many practical problems with this as a solution for Vargas.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 07:40 AM   #78
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
...

Ok, but they are going to be setting up the entire process in a workshop, without anyone being allowed there other than people they trust.

What kind of person does Vargas need to handle everything? By which I mean, know what kind of specialists to consult, know which kind of help to hire, how to set everything up, how to apply the process to non-standard applications, etc.?

He's not going to spend $300,000 to $5,000,000 setting up the capability without someone he trusts overseeing each step. Even leaving aside his personal toy armour, if he's investing in the capability to better armour his trucks and APCs, that's a strategically vital resource. The person responsible for it will be a valued specialist, important to his little cartel.

At this level of funding and because he's been trying to get 'Project Black Knight' armour built ever since 2011 or so, sending a bright young associate to college or trade school is not out of the question. Nor is finding someone with the kind of background that would allow him to default much of his and learn the rest over months of trial and error, and forming a relationship with him.

I think the latter is the best idea as he can't risk being left high and dry by a more standard commercial relationship. And knowing that might drive him to act in a manner that will actually increase the likelihood of that happening! If nothing else while Vargas might not be interested in the commercial detailshere, he might well be interstetin the ability to express his largesse to other organisations by being able to bestow special gifts using this material.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The people working there during day-to-day operations can presumably have Machinist, yes. There might need to be an overseer present with skills like Blacksmithing or Armoury (Vehicular Armour), as making armour plate to the highest commercial specifications doesn't seem like entirely mundane labour, devoid of complications beyond those applicable when your daily work is making spare parts from common steels.

I don't think you can make body armour with it unless you have people with Armoury (Body Armour), or more likely an optional specialisation thereof, probably initially defaulted from Blacksmith or Machinist or learned by practical application from principles of Metallurgy or some kind of Engineer.
...
TBH I'd say the armoury (vehicle) and (body armour) could easily separate from the steel production facility. And actually keeping it all separate might not be a bad idea for security reasons as well!

That way you have one site with the process going on spitting out pieces to the specs sent to them by a 2nd site where the body armour is produced, and 3rd site where the vehicle work is done.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-09-2018 at 08:17 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 08:05 AM   #79
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
What kind of person does Vargas need to handle everything? By which I mean, know what kind of specialists to consult, know which kind of help to hire, how to set everything up, how to apply the process to non-standard applications, etc.?

He's not going to spend $300,000 to $5,000,000 setting up the capability without someone he trusts overseeing each step. Even leaving aside his personal toy armour, if he's investing in the capability to better armour his trucks and APCs, that's a strategically vital resource. The person responsible for it will be a valued specialist, important to his little cartel.
To do all of that, you need a fully trained mechanical engineer, with a lot of vehicle experience, and some management experience. And one just jumped into my head.

Carlos got an excellent degree in mechanical engineering from the National Autonomous University of Mexico in about 2002. He wanted to be a vehicle designer, so he joined the Mexican HQ of one of the big US car manufacturers, since that held out the possibility of transferring to the US, where they do most of their design work. His initial post was running the training the company provides for dealership mechanics, throughout Mexico. He was very capable and willing, and more and more responsibilities passed to him. Even though he was advising on market-specific features for the whole of Latin America by 2008, the company wasn't actually trying to get him to move to the US. Getting company sponsorship for immigration from Mexico requires being good at company politics as well as engineering and management, and he was kind of busy for that.

Then the automotive industry crisis hit. All the big car makers laid off a lot of staff, and Carlos found himself out of a job. He decided he'd been played for a fool, chasing a hope that was never real, because the gringos keep the good jobs for their own. He sees working in the drug industry as using the USA's wealth against it. He isn't happy about what it does to Mexico, but it's a war.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 08:15 AM   #80
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
To do all of that, you need a fully trained mechanical engineer, with a lot of vehicle experience, and some management experience. And one just jumped into my head.

Carlos got an excellent degree in mechanical engineering from the National Autonomous University of Mexico in about 2002. He wanted to be a vehicle designer, so he joined the Mexican HQ of one of the big US car manufacturers, since that held out the possibility of transferring to the US, where they do most of their design work. His initial post was running the training the company provides for dealership mechanics, throughout Mexico. He was very capable and willing, and more and more responsibilities passed to him. Even though he was advising on market-specific features for the whole of Latin America by 2008, the company wasn't actually trying to get him to move to the US. Getting company sponsorship for immigration from Mexico requires being good at company politics as well as engineering and management, and he was kind of busy for that.

Then the automotive industry crisis hit. All the big car makers laid off a lot of staff, and Carlos found himself out of a job. He decided he'd been played for a fool, chasing a hope that was never real, because the gringos keep the good jobs for their own. He sees working in the drug industry as using the USA's wealth against it. He isn't happy about what it does to Mexico, but it's a war.
Cool, I like him.

If he is from Michoacán, can he have attended the satellite facility in Morelia, without doing violence to your concept? That is, will the regional satellite facility have a full engineering program or would he have had to move to Mexico City for that?

Also, just if you happen to know, might one of the US car companies have had staff at the port in Lazaro Cardenas, Michoacán?

I'm trying to provide him with connections with what was, until 2014, a very regional cartel, recruiting mostly among Michoacán people.

If Mexico City or another big city far away from Michoacán are the only plausible locations for his education and employment, that will still work. I'll either give him a family connection with someone or just propose he started working for the widespread and powerful Sinaloa cartel and that they have arranged to have him work on this project with Vargas.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cutting-edge armor design, hema, jade serenity, pyramid #3/85, sca

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.