02-09-2018, 03:52 AM | #71 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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02-09-2018, 04:02 AM | #72 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Also, vehicle armour often has to has holes cut in it for vision blocks, aerials, wiring, & etc. This steel may not react well to this, or might be too expensive to cut holes in. Another thought - it's performance may simply not scale up with thickness.
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02-09-2018, 04:02 AM | #73 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Except, possibly, if Vargas eventually came to form an internal team of designers, who might contract out specific armour pieces made out of some advanced materials without explaining what they need it for. In that case, they could probably deal with pretty much any custom fabrication facility without too many problems. After all, ordering curved bands of extremely high strength steel alloys or titanium composites to certain, very specific specifications, shouldn't be much of a problem anywhere. Quote:
In either case, sounds amazing for what Vargas wants. What sort of real-world background would someone need to be able to figure out how to perform this process, after buying the necessary tools? What kind of education, trade school or apprenticeship would be best for someone whom you planned to put in charge of running a garage workshop doing this? What about his assistants and staff? What kind of skills, in GURPS terms? Metallurgy? Blacksmithing? Mechanic? Armoury (Vehicle Armour)? Machinist? Engineering (insert speciality)? All of the above? Perhaps also other skills? Quote:
In case the $300,000 figure is realistic for actually getting all the tools you'd need to be able to apply this treatment to the individual pieces of a plate harness, I imagine Vargas might spring for it. If only a little more cash would get him something able to handle pieces large enough to be useful in armouring pick-up trucks and other vehicles, he could even justify using some of his organisational capital and operating funds to get this capability. Yes, it's possible to just use thicker welded plates of soft steels to get the required protection (against M2 .50 BMG machine guns), but weight issues and subsequent problems with driving at any speed are real concerns with the garage-modified armoured trucks that the cartels use as APCs. Not to mention that low-profile internal armour is becoming more popular, to avoid police and military attention. The cartels will sometimes try to use commercial solutions for this, which tends to actually be plates of AR500 steel, or a number of proprietory steels with more-or-less the same properties, but as it turns out, Alpine, Armormax, Bulldog, Griffin, Lenco, Orion, Streit and any number of other companies are loath to suffer the negative publicity associated with having their products turn up in shootouts with the police, even in Mexico, so a reliable supply of professionally installed low-profile plates is a perennial problem. Vargas could probably save money in the long run if he could manufacture his own armoured plates to install in vehicles. Even if their performance was just similar to typical commercial vehicle armour steels, like AR500 or MIL-A-46100, it would be worth it. If it could actually improve on commercial-grade TL8 armour steel for all their armoured trucks, home protection and APC needs, it would be amazing and easily worth spending $5,000,000+ a year on tools, salaries and supplies to keep running. Any steel plate production capability that was more than Vargas' (relatively) small group of elite enforcers required could probably be used by his strategic partners in the Sinaloa cartel. And the fact that the equipment and someone who could use it would be useful for his private toy project would, of course, provide much better motivation for him to actually make this happen than merely because it makes good economic sense. Of course, any personnel connected to this who are useful mostly or even only for Vargas' private toys, as well as the use of the tools for such purposes, would effectively be paid for out of his private household budget, as even when no money is changing hands, it would have an opportunity cost to spend part of the time on making archaic armour rather than paramilitary and security vehicle armour useful to the entire Sinaloa cartel. In essence, Vargas' household budget would diminish a little, because he was not using all his resources to make a profit, but using a part of them to play with expensive toys. But even so, it sounds like the 'non-useful' part of this could fit within his $2,500,000 maximum budget for his 'Project Black Knight'.
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02-09-2018, 04:10 AM | #74 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Likely to work as advertised? Any predictable unforeseen disadvantages? How practical for a project like this, i.e. building armour which looks medieval-esque, but provides rifle protection over as much of the body as can be done without making it any clumsier than the best historical field plate? Quote:
AR500 and similar alloys are technically considered to be specialised for protection against HVPs (High-Velocity Penetrators), i.e. small arms fire, which suggests to me that my idea about giving them slightly higher DR against piercing (and probably cutting, for consistency) than other threats, like crushing, impaling and burning for the various forms of anti-armour threats, would not be too out of line. Anywhere you want your protection in other shapes than flat or very gently curved plates, though, working with these high-hardness steels is more trouble than it is usually worth, even if they would technically give better DRs, especially against APHC .50 BMG or maybe anti-personnel auto-cannon fire, than the alternative.
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02-09-2018, 05:00 AM | #75 | ||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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It's stuff like: Another major manufacturer "that makes 10 million vehicles per year," according to Cola, tested Flash-processed steel on a structural/safety component of a car that is 3 mm thick and 3 lb (1.4 kg) in weight in its current form. Using the flash treatment, a part was created that weighs 2 lb (0.9 kg) at 2 mm thick, and passes all the same tests – and the OEM estimated it could be made at a cost savings. which if true (and transferable) is pretty damn good! Quote:
Basically actually running the machine probably don't need much skill, but you going to what them in reserve to: A. set the machine B. check the results C. Make adjustments to your process However what that does mean is you can probably get away with getting in such specialist skill sets on an advisory hire basis rather than needing them on site at all time to actually run or oversee the machine. Ultimately while all the skills you mention may theoretically touch on the use of this machine, I don't think you'd te full range of them to actually run it day to day. Of course the more you vary what your doing the more flexible your staff will need to be and that tends to require a broader and more in depth knowledge to support. This just the running of the machine though, you have to actually put together the stuff it spits out. But again If were talking only a few end uses that makes it easier. So yeah You might need access to some of those skill initially, and maybe have them on call for solving issues, I don't think you'll need those who are actually working it to have mush more than being reasonably intelligent Quote:
So yeah at first glance it looks absolutely spot on for Vagas' needs! And yeah I agree if it's actually used to manufacture armour plate for vehicles and other uses and as a side line spit out plate armour pieces then it becomes the dog wagging the tail not the tail wagging the dog in terms of resource costs vs. return. FWIW that article was from 2015, this is the PR page of Flash Bainite (so only good news of course) however it still seems to be going well! (and a link to the article it cites from July 17) To me the standout thing here seems to be that it's a flexible technology while keeping the advantage it offers. *and as DanHoward intimated in his post, potential Wonder processes and materials being reported on can come up, but ones that actually pan out not just to live up to their early technical promises but also commercial promises are rather rarerer! Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-09-2018 at 05:58 AM. |
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02-09-2018, 05:40 AM | #76 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Ballistic/SCA Arming Doublets and Underlayers
Here is something that can be worn under any kind of armour eventually emerges. Mind you, Vargas and maybe even some of his retinue would certainly replace the Improved Kevlar with Ballistic Polymer tailored to their bodies, which would probably require Stylish, as they would have to obtain it from some custom-maker like Miguel Caballero.
In case Improved Kevlar** is so much harder to get or to work with than regular Kevlar that it is not practical to have their maquiladora ladies work in it, I could see the sicarios replacing the Improved Kevlar part with just Kevlar. This would be heavier for the DR of protection against knives and swords that they want, but also give slightly better piercing and cutting protection, due to the greater mass of material. At these thicknesses, obviously, there is no actual ballistic protection, no matter what kind of flexible armour material is used, but this would include straps and provisos for attaching the actual protective armour on top. Those who could afford it would also get their arming doublet tailored to fit them while wearing cooling vests underneath. --- Arming Doublet / Gambeson Torso and Arms (10.5 sf coverage) Improved Kevlar DR 3/1 (CW 0.08; CM $120); Fabric; Stylish (+1 CF)** = 2.64 lbs.; $633.6. Nylon (actually a placeholder for TL8 material that would make good padding) DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.5; CM $6; counts as CW 0.325; CM $30); Impact-Absorbing; Stylish (+3 CF) = 0.853125 lbs.; $102.375. Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric; Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.785 lbs.; $114.24. This is a layered jacket or doublet that covers the torso and arms, made from an inner layer of TL8 cloth padding, a thin layer of para-aramids and an outer layer of cloth that appears period accurate for a gambeson. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight. I've allowed a clothing-thick (1/4 CW and CM) layer of some hypothetical impact-absorbing fabric, combined with a layer of clothing-thick actual linen or similar, to combine with the ballistic fabric to give it +1 DR only against Crushing. Actually, considering that this weighs about the same as a historical padded doublet with DR 1 against all threats and it incorporates para-aramids that would give DR 6/2 at a similar weight if it were only made from them, I'm going to simplify and give DR 2 against all other damage types than pi and cut. Final Cost and Weight rounded off. TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don 8 --- Gambeson --- --- - Torso, Arms --- --- 3/2* --- $850 --- 5.3 lbs. --- 15 --- A cheaper version, more easily available to sicarios, with their limited organisational resources and always less cash than all the things they want. 'Maquiladora' Gambeson Torso and Arms (10.5 sf coverage) Kevlar DR 2/1 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Fabric = 2.1 lbs.; $184. Rubber DR 1 (CW 0.45; CM $5); Optimised Fabric = 3.78 lbs.; $37.8. Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric = 1.785 lbs.; $27.56. This is a layered jacket or doublet that covers the torso and arms, made from an inner layer of removable rubber padding, a thin layer of kevlar and an outer layer of cloth that appears more or less acceptable for a gambeson. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight. Final Cost and Weight rounded off. TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don 8 --- Gambeson --- --- - Torso, Arms --- --- 3/2* --- $250 --- 7.7 lbs. --- 30 --- And here are breeches that would be suitable to use for sparring, as well as being appropriate as the underlayer for rigid armour, like greaves and poleyns, attached to it. Arming Breeches, light cloth Legs (7 sf coverage) Kevlar DR 3/1 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 1.68 lbs.; $268.8. Cloth DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.85; CM $8); Optimised Fabric, Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.19 lbs.; $80.64. These are breeches made from kevlar fabric, with a fairly thin outer layer of cloth designed to appear to be authentic medieval style quilted padding. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight. Final Cost and Weight rounded off. TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don 8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 3/1* --- $350 --- 3.9 lbs. --- 20 --- Arming Breeches, 'leather' Legs (7 sf coverage) Kevlar DR 6/2 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 3.36 lbs.; $537.6. Leather DR 0 [0.25] (CW 0.9; CM $10); Optimised Fabric, Stylish (+3 CF) = 1.26 lbs.; $100.8. These are breeches made from a fairly thick kevlar fabric, with a fairly thin outer layer of leather designed to appear to be armour-grade leather. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight. Final Cost and Weight rounded off. TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don 8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 6/2* --- $440 --- 4.7 lbs. --- 25 --- Ballistic Leather Breeches Legs (7 sf coverage) Kevlar DR 8/2 (CW 0.1; CM $80); Optimised Fabric = 4.48 lbs.; $716.8. Leather DR 1 (CW 0.9; CM $10); Scales, Stylish (+3 CF) = 6.93 lbs.; $221.76. These are SCA 'leather' armour breeches made from even thicker kevlar fabric, enough to stop .38 Special at point blank and even 9x19mm at longer ranges, with an outer layer of finely made leather scale armour. It is tailored to the individual user and exact Cost and Weight will change in proportion to user weight. Final Cost and Weight rounded off. TL --- Armour --- --- ---- Location --- ---- DR --- Cost --- Weight --- Don 8 --- Breeches --- --- --- --- Legs --- --- --- 9/3* --- $940 --- 11.5 lbs. --- 30 *Flexible. Use the higher DR only against piercing and cutting attacks. The Ballistic Leather Breeches have a further -1 DR against crushing attacks. **As anything that counts as Improved Kevlar is almost certainly proprietory and trademarked, getting a supply of such materials to have their maquiladora seastresses custom-tailor is probably going to be more difficult than with older para-aramids. I've added an arbitrary +1 CF, not as much as full Stylish, to represent this. Depending on advice, I may increase it.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-09-2018 at 08:04 AM. |
02-09-2018, 07:22 AM | #77 | ||||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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This seems like something that might interest O'Toole's player, who is an engineer (albeit software and electrical?/electronics?/something having to do with complicated electronic stuff... or was it fluid dynamics?). He likes the theory of building stuff, even if his actual work happens in front of a computer which does some kind of modelling which makes my eyes glaze so badly I can't remember what he's modelling. Quote:
As I'll already have accounted for R&D costs and setting up the tools to make it, this seems fair. Of course, it will have to use Stylish, which pushes the Cost up into the stratosphere anyway. Quote:
What kind of person does Vargas need to handle everything? By which I mean, know what kind of specialists to consult, know which kind of help to hire, how to set everything up, how to apply the process to non-standard applications, etc.? He's not going to spend $300,000 to $5,000,000 setting up the capability without someone he trusts overseeing each step. Even leaving aside his personal toy armour, if he's investing in the capability to better armour his trucks and APCs, that's a strategically vital resource. The person responsible for it will be a valued specialist, important to his little cartel. At this level of funding and because he's been trying to get 'Project Black Knight' armour built ever since 2011 or so, sending a bright young associate to college or trade school is not out of the question. Nor is finding someone with the kind of background that would allow him to default much of his and learn the rest over months of trial and error, and forming a relationship with him. Quote:
I don't think you can make body armour with it unless you have people with Armoury (Body Armour), or more likely an optional specialisation thereof, probably initially defaulted from Blacksmith or Machinist or learned by practical application from principles of Metallurgy or some kind of Engineer. Quote:
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He's probably still using a single workshop with limited production capabilities, not having bothered to set up a larger legitimate business which could serve as cover for an expanding production line. It's probably set up at some palatial ranch, in a huge garage, in order for his toy designers to be accessible to him. The truck detailing is probably done somewhere else, if that's practical, with completed armour plates being transported to the mechanics who install them in the stolen cars, at the same time as changing their appearance, plates and doing work on the suspension, etc. Then again, Vargas has probably only had his current set-up for 12-18 months, with the first experiments with the flash bainite process occuring about two years ago. So maybe expansion is a possibility for the future, but not something he's bothered to do yet. For all that Vargas is mostly interested in living a life as close to an einherji in Valhalla as possible, there are people in the Caballero Templarios with much more business sense, organisational acumen and accounting skill. Vargas just doesn't listen to these people as much as they would want, for one thing, because they tend to be less interested in the things he likes and not tough/crazy enough to earn his admiration. After all, some of his people used to be middle-managers, and even quite specialised professionals of Administration, Merchant and similar skills, for La Familia Michoacán and now defunct parent cartel, the original Caballero Templarios. This would have been at a time when these cartels had revenues of several billion dollars a year, from a very diversified portfolio, some of it legal businesses being run with illegal methods and muscle. Quote:
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Which is why I'll only use this if no one knowledgable comes along and points out the no doubt many practical problems with this as a solution for Vargas.
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02-09-2018, 07:40 AM | #78 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I think the latter is the best idea as he can't risk being left high and dry by a more standard commercial relationship. And knowing that might drive him to act in a manner that will actually increase the likelihood of that happening! If nothing else while Vargas might not be interested in the commercial detailshere, he might well be interstetin the ability to express his largesse to other organisations by being able to bestow special gifts using this material. Quote:
That way you have one site with the process going on spitting out pieces to the specs sent to them by a 2nd site where the body armour is produced, and 3rd site where the vehicle work is done. Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-09-2018 at 08:17 AM. |
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02-09-2018, 08:05 AM | #79 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Carlos got an excellent degree in mechanical engineering from the National Autonomous University of Mexico in about 2002. He wanted to be a vehicle designer, so he joined the Mexican HQ of one of the big US car manufacturers, since that held out the possibility of transferring to the US, where they do most of their design work. His initial post was running the training the company provides for dealership mechanics, throughout Mexico. He was very capable and willing, and more and more responsibilities passed to him. Even though he was advising on market-specific features for the whole of Latin America by 2008, the company wasn't actually trying to get him to move to the US. Getting company sponsorship for immigration from Mexico requires being good at company politics as well as engineering and management, and he was kind of busy for that. Then the automotive industry crisis hit. All the big car makers laid off a lot of staff, and Carlos found himself out of a job. He decided he'd been played for a fool, chasing a hope that was never real, because the gringos keep the good jobs for their own. He sees working in the drug industry as using the USA's wealth against it. He isn't happy about what it does to Mexico, but it's a war.
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02-09-2018, 08:15 AM | #80 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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If he is from Michoacán, can he have attended the satellite facility in Morelia, without doing violence to your concept? That is, will the regional satellite facility have a full engineering program or would he have had to move to Mexico City for that? Also, just if you happen to know, might one of the US car companies have had staff at the port in Lazaro Cardenas, Michoacán? I'm trying to provide him with connections with what was, until 2014, a very regional cartel, recruiting mostly among Michoacán people. If Mexico City or another big city far away from Michoacán are the only plausible locations for his education and employment, that will still work. I'll either give him a family connection with someone or just propose he started working for the widespread and powerful Sinaloa cartel and that they have arranged to have him work on this project with Vargas.
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cutting-edge armor design, hema, jade serenity, pyramid #3/85, sca |
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