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Old 12-10-2012, 02:24 PM   #11
Dinadon
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Wealth and money are indeed different things, which is exactly why higher Wealth is not the answer. Wealth is your social ability to accumulate buying power. Han Solo or Mal Reynolds aren't Wealthy at all; they just own old ships that serve the same dramatic function and economic niche as cargo trucks. You don't want Mal to be able to get higher-paying jobs; you want him to be Poor and having trouble getting a good job, but still have his own ship.
That's fine when your Wealth is abstract, but when 90% of that Wealth is a single asset, your only way to accumulate buying power is to use that asset. Nor would I put Han or Mal down as those with a steady job. They finds jobs they can do, and then get paid if they are completed, assuming they don't just get screwed over by the client. And all without going against their morals. So for them it's more about not getting paid regularly rather than getting paid little.

So long as necessities cost close to income you are probably going to be poor irrespective of amounts involved, and if there's only one place where you are able to spend any excess then extravagance isn't going to happen that often.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:44 PM   #12
Lamech
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

I would alter sig gear to be 50% of starting wealth not standard campaign wealth. Then you just grab a lot of wealth and put it all in gear.

Finally, you don't take the skills for a high paying job. (Or if you do get those skills you don't take the job.)

Bam! Lot of gear, low wealth.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:03 PM   #13
Mr Frost
 
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Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by Dinadon View Post
That's fine when your Wealth is abstract, but when 90% of that Wealth is a single asset, your only way to accumulate buying power is to use that asset. Nor would I put Han or Mal down as those with a steady job. They finds jobs they can do, and then get paid if they are completed, assuming they don't just get screwed over by the client. And all without going against their morals. So for them it's more about not getting paid regularly rather than getting paid little.

So long as necessities cost close to income you are probably going to be poor irrespective of amounts involved, and if there's only one place where you are able to spend any excess then extravagance isn't going to happen that often.
This , plus note that the average old aged pensioner often outright owns His/Her home which can easily be worth over $100,000 real world dollars {5 times starting wealth} , they are not however earning wealthy [20] level income if they get a job .

Few sane people will try to "leverage" their actual home {which is what Serenity was to Mal and Co. in Firefly} into equivalent income {Wealth Advantage} unless they have no good choice and even then will seek to keep the risk to a minimum .

One golden rule used by actually successful entrepreneurs is "don't invest more than you can afford to lose .




I wonder if levels of Wealth can be bought with a Mitigator (no income) limiting them to whatever income level they bought at full cost .
I'm too tired to figure what a fair % the mitigator would be worth though .
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:09 PM   #14
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by Dinadon View Post
That's fine when your Wealth is abstract, but when 90% of that Wealth is a single asset, your only way to accumulate buying power is to use that asset. Nor would I put Han or Mal down as those with a steady job. They finds jobs they can do, and then get paid if they are completed, assuming they don't just get screwed over by the client. And all without going against their morals. So for them it's more about not getting paid regularly rather than getting paid little.

So long as necessities cost close to income you are probably going to be poor irrespective of amounts involved, and if there's only one place where you are able to spend any excess then extravagance isn't going to happen that often.
Well for one thing, if you're not able to earn the Wealth-appropriate income, you're not getting your points-worth for Wealth.

For another, spending 90% of your Wealth on a spaceship hardly precludes earning pay appropriate to your Wealth level. Just drop a few points on an appropriate job skill, point out that you've already got the Wealth on your sheet, and go. Now, the difficulty might be if your personal earnings at your wealth level don't look so good when you're also paying upkeep on the ship. But that means that running the ship has to produce substantially more revenue than a Wealth-level job would.
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Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
I would alter sig gear to be 50% of starting wealth not standard campaign wealth. Then you just grab a lot of wealth and put it all in gear.

Finally, you don't take the skills for a high paying job. (Or if you do get those skills you don't take the job.)

Bam! Lot of gear, low wealth.
And you've gotten a grand total of [0] points for your poverty compared to someone who decided they were okay with earning money after all.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:23 PM   #15
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

You could also mix some level of wealth and debt. This is doubly useful if your equipment would normally warrant higher fees. IE- if you own a starship why aren't you making money in line with people who own starships; with wealth enough to own a starship and then debt the answer is easy- you do; just your other obligations eat most of that money leaving only what your adjusted wealth indicates.

The 'buy it as signature gear' is always valid for most any sort of equipment.

Next option is to build your piece of uber equipment as an ally- a suit of power-armour, or a magical sword, or even an aircraft are all stat-able as allies (and are actually insanely inexpensive point-wise, and will grow as the character grows).

Finally, I always like to view the cost of vehicles like spaceships in the same vein as cars today- that may be incorrect, as large items like boats don't follow quite the same curve of depreciation, but in a setting where it seems that EVERYONE has a spaceship then it might be entirely possible to buy a twenty year old beater ship for less then 10% of the original sticker price but still have it be performance competitive with other ships (though need a lot more TLC and not be as visually impressive as well as lacking the most cutting edge features.)
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:27 PM   #16
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But that means that running the ship has to produce substantially more revenue than a Wealth-level job would..
For large static investments, such as spaceships, it may be fair to treat their value as some multiple of their monthly net profits, rather than on what it might cost to purchase one new; somewhere around 200-250x is appropriate. That would be profit beyond normal pay scale for crew; a ship that merely lets you make the same income with the same amount of work as you could get working for someone else isn't all that valuable (say, 10x monthly wages).
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #17
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

I think if I was to use just straight Wealth, it would need to have something, a Vow or other disadvantage that restricted the player's ability to casually cash in the item, and yet still give them a point break for passing up the income normally associated with Wealth.

And again, please note that I am looking for a solution that fits more than just a ship - one character I wanted to do a long time ago was a fantasy warrior who, though poor himself, had a very valuable magical sword. I really need a solution that equates $ to cp, not one that tries to reprice a starship (something I can do in setting as needed).

I do like the PK (via JP42) solution for scaling Signature Gear and Trading Points for Money. That may solve the issue most directly and fairly.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:50 PM   #18
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
You could also mix some level of wealth and debt. This is doubly useful if your equipment would normally warrant higher fees. IE- if you own a starship why aren't you making money in line with people who own starships; with wealth enough to own a starship and then debt the answer is easy- you do; just your other obligations eat most of that money leaving only what your adjusted wealth indicates.
I dislike assuming debt - sometimes that makes sense for the character (Han Solo), other times it does not (Malcolm Reynolds). And I think Wealth still works as a good arbiter of income regardless of the value of the ship - perhaps the maintenance, supplies, fees, and salaries associated with the ship eat up a huge chunk of income, but someone with Very Wealthy has the connections, prestige, bankroll, and other abilities needed to turn that extra bit of profit. Meanwhile the Struggling shipowner is buying parts as needed (and more expensive), getting worse deals, etc - same exact ship, but one guy rakes in the dough, another one struggles, just like anything else.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Next option is to build your piece of uber equipment as an ally- a suit of power-armour, or a magical sword, or even an aircraft are all stat-able as allies (and are actually insanely inexpensive point-wise, and will grow as the character grows).
While I understand it has become very popular in GURPS, I loathe this option - prices are often readily available while point costs are not, statting up an item often misses or misrepresents things, and it is simply counter-intuitive to me. I don't want to have to design a ship as a character when it is a ship with a pricetag hanging off it.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
in a setting where it seems that EVERYONE has a spaceship then it might be entirely possible to buy a twenty year old beater ship for less then 10% of the original sticker price but still have it be performance competitive with other ships
Not an issue - I am not trying to haggle on prices, I am trying to put what the character wants into cp in a manner consistent with the background story. What if the character wants to be a deposed noble, flying around with nothing more than the yacht they escaped in? No real Wealth beyond the very nice ship, no real Status, no hope of a decent income... but the ship is big, beautiful, and debt-free!
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:53 PM   #19
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
For large static investments, such as spaceships, it may be fair to treat their value as some multiple of their monthly net profits, rather than on what it might cost to purchase one new; somewhere around 200-250x is appropriate. That would be profit beyond normal pay scale for crew; a ship that merely lets you make the same income with the same amount of work as you could get working for someone else isn't all that valuable (say, 10x monthly wages).
That puts the profit margin on the ship itself, when for narrative and realism purposes it should be at least as much a function of the Captain and crew. It also decouples the gaming advantages of the ship itself - a heavily armed raiding craft may not be as profitable as a medium freighter in a particular setting, but it is certainly a big help in game!
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #20
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: Gear rich, money poor

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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
I dislike assuming debt - sometimes that makes sense for the character (Han Solo), other times it does not (Malcolm Reynolds). And I think Wealth still works as a good arbiter of income regardless of the value of the ship - perhaps the maintenance, supplies, fees, and salaries associated with the ship eat up a huge chunk of income, but someone with Very Wealthy has the connections, prestige, bankroll, and other abilities needed to turn that extra bit of profit. Meanwhile the Struggling shipowner is buying parts as needed (and more expensive), getting worse deals, etc - same exact ship, but one guy rakes in the dough, another one struggles, just like anything else.
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Not an issue - I am not trying to haggle on prices, I am trying to put what the character wants into cp in a manner consistent with the background story. What if the character wants to be a deposed noble, flying around with nothing more than the yacht they escaped in? No real Wealth beyond the very nice ship, no real Status, no hope of a decent income... but the ship is big, beautiful, and debt-free!
I understand but do not support, your position on the building possession with CP thing.

However I think these two statements directly contradict. Han solo has the melinium falcon, which is by all rights a top of the line spacecraft, but has huge debt, spaceships are rare, and having one is a big deal. Malcom Renolds has the ludicrous beater of a spaceship held together by mud and only flying because he has an ally with gadgeteer 2 that is somewhat restricted by limitations AND the setting has 'everyone and there dog has a spaceship', and the awesome space-yacht is either worth something as a vehicle for employment, or its not a very good spaceship and thus well within the range of a 'signature gear' purchase. (Spaceship used in all three examples but feel free to replace with power armor, magic sword, or whatever)

Unless you have a habit of letting PCs build characters who directly challenge the game world setting there will be no true 'one size fits all' answer for this sort of question, and I feel that dismissing 'I don't want to fiddle with prices' is kind of disingenuous to the overall problem.

Problem:
PC has otherwise expensive item, but should be poor and have to struggle for money.

Situation - 1:
Expensive and rare items can be leveraged for money- If you have a +5 flaming sword of awesome then you should command money equal to your skill +5, which means that you are not poor while leveraging your flaming sword. Further there is a certain prestige attached to having such a device, because they are rare and useful.

Situation - 2:
Expensive and common items cost way too much and don't really do anything because they are supposed to be common to the setting. There is a mad wizard who cranks out flaming swords, and lots of people have them, so having a +5 might be of note, but does not let you command extra money, there is no special prestige attached to having such a device, because they are common- and in fact the prestige may be attached to rarer makes, models, styles, or even just what's 'in fashion' that year. (FLAMING swords, that's so last year, now it's all about electricity!)

Solution -1:
Wealth+debt; you don't make as much money as your special trinket should allow you to. Debt makes the most sense for explaining this, but in all fairness you could just as easily attribute it to something else and say that the debt is virtual and the impact on how much you get paid because of other factors to the PCs global inability to make money. They aren't getting 100,000 and then spending 80,000 of it on there debt, they are just getting the 20% outright for other reasons.

Solution 2-:
Used/beaten/useless costs less: You can have a +5 flaming sword because the social and utility components of the item are weakened due to there being so many of them out there, you don't need extreme wealth to buy the item, but its effect on gameplay is going to be mitigated because it is not a unique thing; enemies are aware of its capabilities and may have a superior model, and there are lots of people out there hawking there skill with similar equipment. On the upside not having the brand new top of the line or useful example of that device means that you can have it cheap.

So solution 1 really applies to han solo, and solution 2 applies to Malcom Renolds. The displaced noble could be done with either of them- he could take enough wealth to afford the yacht and then enough debt to be at the wealth level you want with the justification 'can't really work/leverage his gear for wealth' (Though why you can't use a top of the line Yacht as a delivery vehicle/tour boat seems strange to me). Under solution 2 the Yacht may be top of the line for a Yacht, but it is imcapable of being leverage for wealth and is therefore pretty useless on the sale market. It does not go as fast as a transport/delivery vehicle, its not as comfortable as a luxury cruiser, and its got minimal armaments- The Noble gets to buy it with starting wealth for the price it would sell for, which is not very much. It was a prestige item when he was a rich noble and could afford to deck it out with the newest fashions and trends, now it's just an awkward under-performing space-plane.
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