GURPS: Infinite Worlds - The Viking Challenge and the Rise of Wessex?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Sindri

As Rick Robinson put it.

"What a contemptable people those Byzantines were, arguing abstruse theology in taverns when they weren't smashing statues or blinding each other, or even negotiating with Muslims; achieving nothing for a thousand years but staving off Visigoths, Avars, Slavs, Persians, Arabs, more Arabs, Bulgars, Vikings, more Vikings, Turks, Normans, more Turks, and still more Turks. They failed to stave off the Fourth Crusade, and finally there came more Turks than they could handle."

I'm curious though, why does your low metal world's history even vaguely resemble our own?

For the same reason the United States of Lizardia does.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Sindri

As Rick Robinson put it.

"What a contemptable people those Byzantines were, arguing abstruse theology in taverns when they weren't smashing statues or blinding each other, or even negotiating with Muslims; achieving nothing for a thousand years but staving off Visigoths, Avars, Slavs, Persians, Arabs, more Arabs, Bulgars, Vikings, more Vikings, Turks, Normans, more Turks, and still more Turks. They failed to stave off the Fourth Crusade, and finally there came more Turks than they could handle."

I'm curious though, why does your low metal world's history even vaguely resemble our own?

Mostly I was just curious to see if I could make an alternate worldline that while had some difference from it's history to ours, I didn't want it to be just completely unrecognizable. I guess like David says, I could always say it's a High Inertia Parallel, rather then just a Farther Parallel.

Originally I wanted them just using Brass and Bronze, but the more I thought it out, the more I started to want 'metal' to be the world's supernatural element from a cultural standpoint, without it being actually supernatural you know? Which came about, actually due in part to some of the good talk that others in the original thread had given me in regards to using magic as a sub for metal I didn't want to do that, but it spun me off in another direction about having the people in this worldline developing an odd cultural relationship to metal when it did pop up rarely.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by smurf

The eastern Roman Empire splits with the Greek Orthodox... IIRC.

The Byzantine Empire as it was known was a relic after the Roman Empire Collapsed. Perry Anderson had done some work on the 2 in Passages from Antiquity.

Didn't they still think of and refer to themselves as Romans?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Icelander

At the time, however, the polity was called, simply, the Roman Empire, or Basilia ton Rhomaion or Imperium Romanum, among other, similar terms. No one used the term Byzantium except in a few archaic or deliberately stylised references to the city of Constantinople, it being the older name for that city. Certainly no one would call their nation after it.[/SIZE]

The Holy Romans of the West may have been reluctant to refer to the Greeks as Romans, though.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The Holy Romans of the West may have been reluctant to refer to the Greeks as Romans, though.

Sure, and some refered to them as Greeks and used various other terms to avoid calling them Romans.

Still would no more call their land Byzantium than we'd call the US the 'Alexandrian Empire' or 'Georgetown Union'.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I guess like David says, I could always say it's a High Inertia Parallel, rather then just a Farther Parallel.

You need to do this. You've made one of the most severe alterations possible to basic economic possibilities. For the general course of history to be altered in relatively minor ways requires some extreme explanation.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

It implies that the eastern half of the Roman Empire is not Christian, or has been completely absorbed by something else. Given that the Sassanid kings almost conquered their Roman counterparts in late antiquity, my guess would be that these Mesopotamians took it over, and converted it to their brand of monotheism, leaving most of the Balkans to fall back into the orbit of the Latin church.

Edit: Another possibility is that the Romans never reached the Euphrates. This is pretty plausible; a strong enough military power in the eastern Mediterranean might have stopped the republic. You might also want to think about whether this world's Alexander failed completely, conquered part of his eastern neighbour, or conquered it but saw his heirs be absorbed into Mesopotamian culture.

A holdout of the eastern empire in Tunisia, Sicily, and southern Italy ruled by refugees from Constantinople might make a good rival for the western empire to go along with the Goths, the Norse, and whichever kingdom in eastern Europe is strongest.

I see what you mean. That's some good points and ideas. I should go back to the BC's and brush up on Greek and Roman periods during this time and try and find out what I can do to get the Orthodox civ out of there, or just marginalized and no longer a 'big power' in the region.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I see what you mean. That's some good points and ideas. I should go back to the BC's and brush up on Greek and Roman periods during this time and try and find out what I can do to get the Orthodox civ out of there, or just marginalized and no longer a 'big power' in the region.

They had a lot of internal intrigue, especially during the Iconoclast period, but my impression is that it was a cultural tendency that was present at most times. So if you make that stronger, the Greek Empire can plausibly become weakened by internal conflict, and end up losing a lot of their territories to neighbouring nations.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Didn't they still think of and refer to themselves as Romans?

I think so. I haven't read about it for ages but I think they saw themselves as the continuation of the Roman Empire, which to them was a good thing. The Byzantines teetered on until the 11th century, where upon the rising Sultinate set to work at it's demise. The Empire ends in the 15th century.