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Old 07-08-2009, 08:26 AM   #31
dataweaver
 
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Yet no one else seemed to want two such systems so different in every other aspect using the same name.

The "Ritual Magic" from the 4e Basic Set is a minor variant of the "individual spell equals separate skill" system of Gurps Magic. "Path/Book Magic" is a totally different way of doing things and not a minor variant of 4e "Ritual Magic". They need different names to distinguish one from the other.
Also very true. Hindsight is 20/20; and in hindsight, I rather wish that what 4e called "Ritual Magic" had instead been called "Path Magic" (since its defining feature was the use of the core/Path/technique learning model), and that what Thaumatology ended up calling Path/Book Magic had been called Ritual Magic (since the central concept was the elaborate preparations and ritual activities needed to make the magic work).
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:12 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Some of your confusion might stem from the efforts to make Path/Book cover both Gurps Voodoo _and_ Castle Falkenstein i.e. "Effect Shaping" and "Energy Accumulation".

I could have happily jettisoned the Falkenstein variant but I tend to think that of all of the game mechanics of Castle Falkenstein.
I would have liked to see them better integrated instead.

You can turn the Voodoo system into an energy accumulation system with quite a simple change - flip the signs and convert all the penalties to energy point costs, the bonuses to energy credits, and roll vs Path at no penalties and accumulate energy equal to your margin of success. If you have enough energy to pay the cost, the ritual works.

Presenting the energy accumulating rules as a variant that way (or vice versa, there's a decent case for making energy accumulation the core mechanic and the penalty/bonus system a variant that doesn't use the vocabulary of energy and drops a few rules about it) would have been much less confusing. Admittedly some of the costs/penalties would have to change, since they aren't consistent from Voodoo to Falkenstern, but, well, that's part of what would make the relationship cleaner and less confusing.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Really? That seems like a perfect name. Why the objections?
High Ceremonial Magic sounds like a variant of Ceremonial Magic. And we already had Ceremonial Magic, with a very different meaning.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:13 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

I think Path/Book makes decent sense, as we had the Paths from Voodoo/Spirits, and added Books, which are more focused applications possibly crossing Paths. (I just need a way to make GCA work with Books easier. Although I just got a new angle to try when posting this.)

Secret Magic campaigns seem ripe for Books. It looks awesome for something Cthulthu-ish.

As far as it goes, both systems for Path/Book have their flavors. Energy Accumulation seems to work along ideas that sorcerors gather power, mold it, then release it after time. Something like Raise Cone of Power did for core Magic, but subtler. The other system, modifiers, seems better for a version of Cabal.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:37 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Most of you in this thread seem very well versed in the magic systems for 4e and what came before in 3e. I'm a newb. Help. The options seem overwhelming for me and my brian has been fried. I'm preparing a modern noir, Dresden-inspired campaign and my biggest hangup is the system of magic to use for what the PCs want to play. I didn't realize how confused I was till I read this thread.

1 PC wants to start off as a high-magic style magic-user where magic is based on study and acedemia and involves the PC participating in rituals, not so much a combat mage. But the PC wants to grow into a magic-user later in her career that could be effective in combat.

A 2nd PC wants to play a Voodoo shaman.

It's a modern game with "secret" magic, but that secret world is on that the PCs are 100% involved in. Please help. My resources are Basic, Magic, Fantasy and Thaumatology, all 4e.

Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:47 PM   #36
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
I'm preparing a modern noir, Dresden-inspired campaign and my biggest hangup is the system of magic to use for what the PCs want to play. I didn't realize how confused I was till I read this thread.

1 PC wants to start off as a high-magic style magic-user where magic is based on study and acedemia and involves the PC participating in rituals, not so much a combat mage. But the PC wants to grow into a magic-user later in her career that could be effective in combat.

A 2nd PC wants to play a Voodoo shaman.

It's a modern game with "secret" magic, but that secret world is on that the PCs are 100% involved in. Please help. My resources are Basic, Magic, Fantasy and Thaumatology, all 4e.
For Dresden itself I'd say Path/Book mostly with the "blasting" stuff actually bought as Innate Attacks. This would probably do for your 1st PC too.

Path/Book ought to do fine for a Voodoo Shaman.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I would have liked to see them better integrated instead.

You can turn the Voodoo system into an energy accumulation system with quite a simple change - flip the signs and convert all the penalties to energy point costs, the bonuses to energy credits, and roll vs Path at no penalties and accumulate energy equal to your margin of success. If you have enough energy to pay the cost, the ritual works.
I prefer separate values for default penalty and energy requirement, as it allows for the hybrid system that I briefly outlined above: in it, the length of the ritual is however long it takes for you to raise sufficient power for it, while the default penalty represents how intricate the shaping needs to be.

Conceptually, it's a power-and-finesse duality. In this hybridized system, I'd apply the ritual elements modifiers (except time) to the effect-shaping roll (which would be made once, as soon as sufficient energy is accumulated), and I'd apply all other modifiers to the energy accumulation requirement.

Summarizing the hybrid system:

Step 1: prepare your ritual elements. This may involve Symbol Drawing, Symbol Drawing (Sacred Architecture), some preliminary Religious Rituals, etc.

Step 2: gather energy. This would be a series of skill rolls, with the skill depending on the magical tradition's preferred means of accumulating energy. The amount that you must accumulate is based on the ritual plus additional amounts for trying to do more. The skill involved should be some sort of performance skill, or something that involves repetitive activity: Meditation, Dancing, Religious Ritual, Erotic Art, and so on.

Step 3: shape the effect. This would be a single Path roll, modified by the ritual's technique and the ritual elements established in step one (unless subsequent events have disrupted your preparations, of course).

Step 4: handle backlash, if any. If casting a hostile ritual that backlashes on you, you can make a skill roll to defuse the backlash.

Step 5: disperse leftover energy, if any. If you didn't use all of the energy that you accumulated, make an appropriate skill roll (HazMat (Magic)?) to disperse the excess, at a penalty based on how much of an excess you have. Failure to do so should have troubling consequences on the various ritual elements that you prepared.

Everything centers around step 3: steps 1 and 2 build up to it, and steps 4 and 5 deal with the aftermath.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Riggler:

Go with Path/Book magic. You'll never turn into a D&D mage...so your first player may be a bit saddened by that, but on the other hand, with the Path/Book Adept advantage [which she could gain later in play over time], the Ritualist can ignore some of the elements (time, space, material components) and that could get her combat ready...though...and here is were you have to figure out something.

The classic division is that Path (effect shaping) is best for spirits, Book (Energy Accumulating) is for Academic Mages. But, Book mages will never be able to get their casting times as short as Path Mages. So if being able to cast almost instantly is really important to your academic mage as a long term goal, then both should be Path Mages.

To give them different flavors you can work with them to decide which paths would be open to them...you can limit them to 4-5 paths say, based on their tradition: The Voodoo magician could be limited to Spirits, Health, Luck, Dreams, and Nature. The Academic to Knowledge, Elements, Cunning, Protection, and Gadgets.

Both use the same rules just different emphases and different cosmetics. One is trafficking with Spirits, the other with tapping into ambient collective energy, or whatever.

Just let your players know that with this system they are never going to be D&D Fireball mages.

I like Energy Accumulating Path/Book...and think it would be cool for your first players...but if she really is committed to casting spells in combat (or at least trying to) then you'll have to go with Effect Shaping all around.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
1 PC wants to start off as a high-magic style magic-user where magic is based on study and acedemia and involves the PC participating in rituals, not so much a combat mage. But the PC wants to grow into a magic-user later in her career that could be effective in combat.
Consider using energy-accumulating Path/Book magic for this, with a focus on Books instead of Paths; her core skill should be Thaumatology rather than Ritual Magic. Allow this player to eventually acquire Path/Book Adept; this will ultimately allow her to bypass the ritual elements that tend to make Path/Book Magic unsuited to combat.

Bottom line: this character would need Magery, Thaumatology, one or more Books, and (later) Book Adept.

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Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
A 2nd PC wants to play a Voodoo shaman.
Use effect-shaping Path/Book magic for this, with a focus on the Paths. Combine it with the Shamanism Power described on p.207 of Thaumatology by using the option described under the Shamanic Talent. To really differentiate the two characters, give the shaman Power Investiture (Shamanic) instead of Path/Book Magery (p.66) - but have it grant access to effect-shaping Path magic instead of a list of spirit-related magic spells.

Bottom line: this character would need Power Investiture (Shamanic), Ritual Magic (Voodoo), Symbol Drawing (Vevers), one or more Paths and Rituals, and (later) various abilities from the Shamanism power.

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Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
It's a modern game with "secret" magic, but that secret world is on that the PCs are 100% involved in. Please help. My resources are Basic, Magic, Fantasy and Thaumatology, all 4e.

Thanks.

Last edited by dataweaver; 07-08-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:15 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Riggles: And definately consider innate attacks for the combat mage.
Never played with these rules so my ideas may be off.
I think however Energy Accumulation is capable of more power so could be a good fit for the combat mage. But as was stated these rules wont make a fireball tossing combat machine. More of a strategic build that needs to prepare but can have some impressive abilities.
Shamans also are often built with Allies and contacts and maybe Spirit Vessel.
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