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Old 10-01-2016, 05:23 PM   #151
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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"You too can be extraordinary, but it will require a dramatic investment of time and effort, and probably the support of your parents to pay for the expensive training you will require."

How the heck does one tell an appealing story with that as its theme? Emphasize the personal effort, I suppose, and of course the reward at the end. Acknowledge but don't dwell on the family support and the sacrifices on the way there.
Finding Bobby Fischer, Soul Surfer, Numbers. Those all made a point of dwelling on family support.
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:44 PM   #152
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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"You too can be extraordinary, but it will require a dramatic investment of time and effort, and probably the support of your parents to pay for the expensive training you will require."
...
Batman vs. Blankman. The latter is a comedy for many reasons, but genius in poverty doesn't lead to much in the real world very often.

Who doesn't joke about Batman having the greatest super power in comics as well as real life; money?

Rocky at least had hard work montages of using low tech training methods.
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Old 10-03-2016, 11:26 PM   #153
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A work of art that celebrates following convention or the guidance of your elders rather than youthful dreams.

A work of art the celebrates unity of background or purpose rather than diversity.
That's highly cyclical. If you go back to the early-to-mid 20C, esp. after 1930, you find quite a bit of that, though the individualist/rebel doesn't vanish entirely. I fully expect to see a conformist period return over the next few decades, then to cycle back the other way again (though I may not live long enough to see that).

That said, since much fiction is read/watched for pleasure, the conformist side probably never dominates its side of the cycle quite as much as the indulgent one does when it's on top, precisely because the indulgent one is indulgent.

That said, though...

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Wasn't that the point of original Romeo And Juliet? Youthful passions led to so much death and idiocy. Letting things be or slow diplomatic voices could have helped so darn much in that volatile city.
Yes. Shakespeare was doing a conscious 'send up' of the courtly love/Romantic fantasy impulse. He was trying to show what sort of thing can happen when you ignore reality because Romantic Love.

The trouble is that people don't like that backbeat, it's too much like reality. It's not as much fun. They often did the same thing with Don Quixote, turning a character meant as a rebuke of Romantic daydreams and fiction into an embodiment of that.

That said, again...

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It would be a rather hard sell to modern audiences to make subjugation of one's self interest and freedom for the greater good the moral.
Exceptions exist. As I've noted before, modern romantic novels and movies embody and revel in the fantasy of 'follow your heart', but it's interesting to note that possible the two most famous romantic movies/novels subvert this. In Gone With the Wind, love signally fails of overcome immaturity and distractions and damage from war.

In Casablanca, we get an ending that specifically embodies a recognition that Duty comes ahead of Desire, albeit itself done Romantically. But Rick and Ilsa are certainly True Love. The only trouble is that True Love doesn't matter, when the world is on fire, as Rick points out. Even if they did run away together, the knowledge that they had betrayed their duty would poison whatever happiness that they might find.

What strikes me as interesting about both cases is that they are instances of legendarily popular 'love stories' that end in the failure or at least the subordination of that love. Not that endless fanfic writers haven't tried to put together a scenario that makes it go the other way, but nobody's ever pulled it off convincingly.

The popularity of those rare exceptions tells me that people do know that 'follow your heart' is shallow nonsense.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:02 AM   #154
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...
The trouble is that people don't like that backbeat, it's too much like reality. It's not as much fun. They often did the same thing with Don Quixote, turning a character meant as a rebuke of Romantic daydreams and fiction into an embodiment of that.

That said, again...
...
I always took the musical version to illustrate how reality is reality but how we interpret and react to it is our choice. You can't change things for the better until you first imagine what you want it become.
I don't think anyone would want to be Alonso Quixana as much fun as journeying with him for a few days might appear.
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Old 10-04-2016, 05:50 AM   #155
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The D&D/Pathfinder paladin who sleeps around a lot anytime he/she can, abusing their immunity to disease and the fact he/she was born sterile, and also is a big bondage freak.

After all, as long as it's done with all participants agreeing on their all free will, and no trickery like false promises was used, everyone was honest about what would and wouldn't be expected, and every possible precaution ensuring nothing dangerous happens, in short, as long as it's fully Safe Sane and Consensual, sex is neither evil nor chaotic right?

The Lawful Good D&D/Pathfinder Rogue. Maybe the ex military type, or the medieval fantasy equivalent of an EOD Specialist working for the town militia, or maybe a normal citizen of a Lawful Good country which was invaded by an Evil Empire and has to fight an enemy superior in numbers and logistics and as such has to improvise.

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Old 10-04-2016, 06:55 PM   #156
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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The D&D/Pathfinder paladin who sleeps around a lot anytime he/she can, abusing their immunity to disease and the fact he/she was born sterile, and also is a big bondage freak.
Bondage part I can totally see in a Paladin. Sleeping around, however, I'd define as distinctly Evil ;)

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The Lawful Good D&D/Pathfinder Rogue. Maybe the ex military type, or the medieval fantasy equivalent of an EOD Specialist working for the town militia, or maybe a normal citizen of a Lawful Good country which was invaded by an Evil Empire and has to fight an enemy superior in numbers and logistics and as such has to improvise.
Lawful Good Rogue is a mainstay of my RP groups, not ex-military just "I'm a professional master of unlocking. You always need someone with these skills if you're going to go plunder the dungeons of Evil - not every task in our crusade can be solved with swords and fireballs."
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:10 PM   #157
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Bondage part I can totally see in a Paladin. Sleeping around, however, I'd define as distinctly Evil ;)
Depends on societal norms, really. With the sexual paradigm of the modern urban US, not really Evil per se, although it might strike some as chaotic behavior, or at least neutral, and thus unbecoming of a Paladin. On the other hand, with a sexual paradigm based on your typical fantasy realm, yes, casually sleeping around would be at least Evil-leaning...
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:40 PM   #158
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Sleeping around usually means indiscriminate promiscuity, not just numerous no-strings-attached sexual partners. At least it does to me and others, if not everyone that uses that term.

It may not work for paragons of virtue in practice as well as theory. Unless extreme care and prep work is done to gauge potential flings, it's risky emotionally as well as medically.
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:42 PM   #159
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...

The Lawful Good D&D/Pathfinder Rogue. Maybe the ex military type, or the medieval fantasy equivalent of an EOD Specialist working for the town militia, or maybe a normal citizen of a Lawful Good country which was invaded by an Evil Empire and has to fight an enemy superior in numbers and logistics and as such has to improvise.
Historical archaeologists would likely qualify more as D&D rogues than even adventurous Indiana Jones.

World Of Warcraft has some lovely examples of them.
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:22 PM   #160
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Historical archaeologists would likely qualify more as D&D rogues than even adventurous Indiana Jones.
At least Indy rarely uses dynamite as a tool of archeology. Some of the real early ones did. It's a fun thing to contrast 19C reality to what we call 'unrealistic' sometimes.
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