Star Wars Stormtroopers in Real Armor [Ultratech]

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

True, in the original trilogy the stormtroopers oscillate between 'inept cannon fodder' and 'reasonably effective elite troops'. Sometimes over the course of a single movie.

In ANH, for ex, the stormtroopers do a credible job of breaching Leia's ship, overrunning the defenders, and capture Leia fairly quickly. Only the fact that the Force is with R2-D2 enables the Death Star files to slip away. Later, we see that they wiped out the Jawa sandcrawler and did it in such a way that only a Jedi or other expert would realize that it was actually a false-flag.

But then we see Han Solo panic a whole platoon of them and chase them through the corridors all alone. Played for laughs.

The first two instances are of professional front-line troopers. The third involves security troops in an secure base, and so they might well not actually be very good troops.

The stormtroopers do a credible job of overrunning the Rebel HQ on Hoth, and handle that interminable speeder bike sequence well enough. But then they get owned by low-tech teddy bears.

(That sequence would have been more believable if Lucas had gone with the original plan of having the Ewoks be Wookies.)

The tricks with the logs on the walkers were okay. The spears and rocks vs armoured troopers, not so much. And again, aside from the teddy-bears with pointy sticks thing, we're seeing frontline troops, and they do okay.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In my mind, Imperial stormtroopers should be exceptional human specimens (even if they are less extraordinary than the original clone troops) because they are elite soldiers.

Except that they really aren't that elite. Or rather, some might be, but most aren't. They are mostly an internal security force, not a field army or an expeditionary force.

I see no indication that they are better than the 75-100 point level of "star athelete, seasoned cop'. Some might be 100-200 points like 'Navy SEALs', but that should be named characters like Phasma.

That's aside from the issues of normal troopers having rank, security clearances, etc.

[AlexanderHowl]

By RAW, Navy SEALS start at 240 CP (experienced SEALS, senior NCO and officers are even higher point values).

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

By RAW, Navy SEALS start at 240 CP (experienced SEALS, senior NCO and officers are even higher point values).

One specific book for one specific genre in one specific situation has Navy SEALs start at 240 points. Meanwhile, the most RAW supplement out there, the Basic Set, lists Navy SEALs as an example that can fit into the 100-200 point "Heroic" range. Which was incredibly clear from the post you were responding to.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The first two instances are of professional front-line troopers. The third involves security troops in an secure base, and so they might well not actually be very good troops.


The tricks with the logs on the walkers were okay. The spears and rocks vs armoured troopers, not so much. And again, aside from the teddy-bears with pointy sticks thing, we're seeing frontline troops, and they do okay.

"It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops await them."

I mean, Palpatine is a delusional evil wizard, but he's also in charge and sure didn't think Endor was being held by a force sub-par garrison scrapings.

As others have said, the real rule tends to be that Storm Troopers can usually win against unsupported no-namers, and are reputed to do so with distinction, but they operate as mooks at best and sometimes as comic relief when facing Protagonist power.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The first two instances are of professional front-line troopers. The third involves security troops in an secure base, and so they might well not actually be very good troops.

Yeah, but being chased through the corridors of their own base by one man armed only with a pistol is more than 'third-tier troops' will cover. The scene is played for comic relief and really makes no sense in a serious setting. The trouble is that ANH alternates between serious and silly. It worked OK in that first movie, in fact the combo was almost magic, but it left the foundations weak when they tried to build an epic saga on it.

The tricks with the logs on the walkers were okay. The spears and rocks vs armoured troopers, not so much. And again, aside from the teddy-bears with pointy sticks thing, we're seeing frontline troops, and they do okay.

Yeah, I agree that the log trick might actually work against a lightly constructed mecha. I don't know how many times they could get away with it, though.

Now, to be fair, there is an in-universe-canon explanation for the Ewok victory: Luke had Palpatine distracted aboard the Death Star, and then Palpatine was dead.

Palpatine had been using his strength in the dark side to motivate and drive his forces all over the galaxy. When he's distracted by Luke that focus lightens and his troops, who aren't used to motivating themselves, lose some focus too. Then when Palpatine dies, it's kind of like Sauron's fall, suddenly his minions find themselves wondering what they're doing there and panic sets in.

This isn't just in the EU material, it's also mentioned in the novelization of RotJ, Palpatine's death left the dark side diffuse and unfocused, and with it went the motivation and esprit de corps of most of his forces.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

This isn't just in the EU material, it's also mentioned in the novelization of RotJ, Palpatine's death left the dark side diffuse and unfocused, and with it went the motivation and esprit de corps of most of his forces.

Overall, the greatest strength of the Force in the original series is in more "mystical" and subtle uses, rather than blatant displays of power.

Later material tends to ignore this in favour of blatant displays of power; to perhaps more cinematic "cool factor", but perhaps less philosophical depth.

Edit: Although I must admit, I am less than sanguine about the idea that much of the galaxy is constantly guided by "those chosen by the Force"; although it is more palatable if viewed as the subconscious choice of large numbers of people, as focused through certain "lenses".

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

"It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops await them."

I mean, Palpatine is a delusional evil wizard, but he's also in charge and sure didn't think Endor was being held by a force sub-par garrison scrapings.

The 'third' that I was referring to was Solo chasing troopers through the Death Star.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

Overall, the greatest strength of the Force in the original series is in more "mystical" and subtle uses, rather than blatant displays of power.

You can suppose that, but there's not really anything in the films that would tell you.

I mean, unless you're calling the Death Star I shot and the Jedi Mind Trick subtle, which I guess they are compared to feats of telekinetic brute force.

The Light Side and the Dark Side of the force subtly influencing the minds and fortunes of everyone is conveniently indistinguishable from the flow of the narrative doing the same...

Originally Posted by Rupert

The 'third' that I was referring to was Solo chasing troopers through the Death Star.

Ah, right...I wouldn't have assumed a random filler unit there, but I don't think there are any lines that conflict with that interpretation.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You can suppose that, but there's not really anything in the films that would tell you.

I mean, unless you're calling the Death Star I shot and the Jedi Mind Trick subtle, which I guess they are compared to feats of telekinetic brute force.

The Light Side and the Dark Side of the force subtly influencing the minds and fortunes of everyone is conveniently indistinguishable from the flow of the narrative doing the same....

The original Star Wars movies could also be reframed to use narrative physics, and would perhaps work better (in this case, better = "without modification") that way. ;)