Reviewer gives GURPS Space substance 3 out of 5

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

... but I'll pretty much buy anything that has William H. Stoddard's name on it.

Having interacted with William H. Stoddard on at least one playtest, and as a fan of GURPS Fantasy I would certainly have to agree!!

On the actual question of Substance 3/5 (for the purposes of disclosing my potential biases to the project, I was a playtester on GURPS Space...) I would have this to say:

There is a lot of Substance to this product. Depending upon what you want to do with the material, there is ample material for designing the things that you are likely to find *in* space, like alien races and new worlds...

While there are some discussions of government types and campaign types and even a large set of templates of character types that show up in SF campaigns, there are not a lot of materials that provide in depth discussions of what a GM would do *downstream* of a set of technological assumptions. This is on purpose and was part of the design of this product...

Specifically, there are discussions in general of how communications and travel technologies differ. Depending upon the combination of any one 'setting' for communications and any other 'setting' for travel work you could potentially have a huge set of resulting society types...

High speed communication + low speed FTL travel, for example would make piracy among the stars much more difficult. On the other hand, if FTL Travel is the limit for communication--Poof! Traveller!

There are so many combinations of assumptions that one could make that conceptually, it made a lot of sense to discuss in concept what impact technology has, and then go into a lot of detail on any one axis of technological development in downstream books.

Ultra Tech, for example, will have a lot of indepth discussion of what each technology *means* and along the genetic engineering/medical axis, Bio-Tech will have a great deal of discussion as well. (I was a playtester on GURPS Biotech too, incidentally)

The point that I'm making is that there is so much material out there for writing and running Space adventures, that complaining that everything isn't in one book (as this review appears to do) simply isn't fair to the scope of the project.

I don't know if it is permissible or appropriate for a playtester to also write a review, but I just might...

In any case, this reviewer appears to have penalized the work for not placing the substance that he would envision, but it's really unfair to say that there *isn't* substance in the work, to my mind.

There is a lot of discussion about star systems and world types... The material that 3e crammed into First In is much more appropriate (being that it's not just a subset of Traveller assumptions) in a book entitled "Space"

-Paraj Mandrekar

[Wicked Lurker]

Originally Posted by CrownedSun

I will agree with this to an extent, but I think the issue ultimately comes down to "Where else would this logically go?"

I see space system generation not too different from vehicle generation or generation of guns etc. The latter two are, however, just to be released on e23 for the freaks/techheads/gunheads/whateverelseheads.

Space System Generation or Alien Generation -- well, you really have to put it in Space since that's just the best place for it. On the other hand, if your going to make a GURPS Vehicles book, it makes sense to put rules for Spaceships and Vehicle-based combat (including Spaceships) there. That's where it makes the most sense!

Well, alien generation could also be more appropriate in any upcoming book focusing on Monsters and their generation.

Vehicles can not, under any circumstances, go into detail on everything.. thats what a genre-book is great for... more detail in a certain direction.

In the end, you hack down everything in small bits and pieces and plant it in half a dozen books.. but this will worsen a problem that GURPS currently has and is, as far as I got the impression, trying to reduce: preparation time.

Similarly, the best place for additional magic info is GURPS Magic.
Yet there were a number of spells in GURPS Fantasy. I wasn't too thrown by that, as it really wasn't much, but it was a bit of a waste of space IMHO.

Well, if you feel you have enough spells with that and the basic set: great, you didn't have to buy a 240 page book on Magic.

If not you paid for a few pages you didn't use (which is less of an investment than a full book in the other case).

Equipment, in my mind, is even more of a waste than magic spells would be. The stuff in the basic set for magic is pretty bare bones, but you can easily run a Space campaign with just the basic equipment from the corebook.

I agree, but you can also easily run a space campaign without GURPS Space... (Which I see as a sign of quality that speaks for basic set rather than against GURPS Space though)

In the end, I think it ultimately comes down to "What's the best way to give the players this information?"

Sure, all of this is subjective and depends on personal preferences in the end.

[Matuku]

I may be being incredibly dim but what is Web-Enhancement?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Matuku

I may be being incredibly dim but what is Web-Enhancement?

Providing additional material for a book on the web. For example, a PDF detailing various new powers for GURPS Powers would be a web enhancement.

[Matuku]

Thanks for that.

Personally I like Space. Its true that it probably would be disappointing in actually providing stuff for use in the campaign, but its excellent in providing an insight into how to design the setting which is what I expected of it. The System generation rules are excellent and the alien ones look so too (though I haven't read them all yet). It gives me what I wanted, info on how to make a believable world, how it all works in real life and how literary SF compares to it. Personally I would just wait for the ultra-tech and vehicle books (Campaigns already contains vehicle combat rules which work well for space) and if I don't want to take the entire books with me when I GM I just copy out the stats of the important weapons/items/vehicles. If you want gadgets then this book isn't for you; if you want to create Space then its perfect (just like Fantasy was for fantasy settings it explores all the different ideas).

[jlb7289]

I am very very disappointed with Space 4e. Space 3e was a great book that you *could* use to run a space campaign, including space combat and technology.

I don't get it and haven't received a satisfactory answer...how do you have a Gurps Space 4th edition with LESS than was in the original? Without a space combat system and space ship design system? It's preposterous and silly. They gave me a big expensive colorful book that is certainly pretty and has some interesting content but doesn't let me do some basic things you want to do in a space campaign!

And I understand the issue of not wanting redundancy in books, but I don't see the why you *wouldn't* include a basic useful ship design and combat system for comprehensiveness of a space campaign worldbook, then include more detail and a more sophisticated system in a Vehicles book.

It's very disappointing, when I opened the book up I kept paging through it for the section on space ships and combat and another section on technology...nothing. Incredible.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Almafeta

I'm thinking of getting Beastiary, since I could use some animal stats to write a fan supplement or two, but the way things are going, there'll be hundreds of pages about animal behavior and running zoos but not one actual animal stat-block.

Genre books cover such genres as conspiracy, cyberpunk, fantasy, and space SF. Their job is to describe the genre, its conventions, and its tropes; to survey genre fiction; and to explain in broad, non-world-specific terms how to create campaigns and PCs that are true-to-genre. Examples: Fantasy, Space.

Worldbooks describe specific settings. Their job is to detail the history, geography, and politics of the setting; to catalog that setting's signature abilities, equipment, races, etc.; to show how to create suitable characters for that particular setting; and to illustrate possible campaign types in the setting. Examples: Banestorm, Infinite Worlds.

Rulebooks provide new systems, usually either for character abilities (magic, martial arts, superhuman powers, and so on) or designing things (vehicles, weapons, etc.). Their job is to provide expansions of the core rules that can be used in any genre or game world (although they'll suit some genres and settings better than others!). Examples: Martial Arts, Powers.

Catalogs list ready-made armor, beasts, implants, magic items, races, vehicles, weapons, or whatever. Their job is to provide large numbers of sorted, indexed items with statistics that can be used in any genre or game world (although they'll suit some genres and settings better than others!). Examples: Bestiary, High-Tech.

It's rather unfair to use one reviewer's inability to grasp the difference between a catalog and a genre book as a basis for the assumption that SJ Games is too stupid to tell the difference between a genre book and a catalog. Of course Bestiary will be a catalog.

[jlb7289]

Dr. Kromm,

I understand what you're saying and understand the distinction between rulebooks, catalogs, worldbooks, and genrebooks (in another post I mistakenly referred to Space as a worldbook, my mistake).

But can you please help me understand why some examination of spaceships and how they move or engage in combat wouldn't be part of a genrebook? I think the distinction between rulebooks and genrebooks isn't as clear as your description would suggest, particularly when it comes to the kind of comprehensiveness needed for playability.

Can you help me with this?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by jlb7289

Dr. Kromm,

I understand what you're saying and understand the distinction between rulebooks, catalogs, worldbooks, and genrebooks (in another post I mistakenly referred to Space as a worldbook, my mistake).

But can you please help me understand why some examination of spaceships and how they move or engage in combat wouldn't be part of a genrebook? I think the distinction between rulebooks and genrebooks isn't as clear as your description would suggest, particularly when it comes to the kind of comprehensiveness needed for playability.

Can you help me with this?

You you expect a Hourse move and engage in combat in a Fantsy Genre Book, or in the Book the talks about Animals?

[KDLadage]

Originally Posted by jlb7289

I am very very disappointed with Space 4e. Space 3e was a great book that you *could* use to run a space campaign, including space combat and technology.

And much of it was handled in way that made it *disagree* with the tech books on the same material. GURPS 4e avoids this by splitting the Genre books from the Catalogs and the Rulebooks.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

I don't get it and haven't received a satisfactory answer... how do you have a Gurps Space 4th edition with LESS than was in the original?

Then you have not been reading very carefully or are unwilling to accept the answer. I think the SJG staff has made it abundantly clear why the material is organized the way that it is. If anything, we have not gotten a satisfactory answer as to why GURPS Fantasy bends the organizational mold a bit.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

Without a space combat system and space ship design system? It's preposterous and silly.

No, it is the method of organization chosen; a method I happen to agree with. the fact that you disagree is neither the definition of preposterous, nor silly.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

They gave me a big expensive colorful book that is certainly pretty and has some interesting content but doesn't let me do some basic things you want to do in a space campaign!

Like what? The book covers everything that a Game Master wanting to design a Space campaign would need and would need to consider during the design process. This, in my opinion, makes it a nearly perfect Genre Book. The fact that the Genre Book is not also a Catalog and a Rulebook is not a flaw.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

And I understand the issue of not wanting redundancy in books, but I don't see the why you *wouldn't* include a basic useful ship design and combat system for comprehensiveness of a space campaign worldbook, then include more detail and a more sophisticated system in a Vehicles book.

Because any trimmed down version of the Starship design system and the Combat System would require that the book know what choices you made of the hundreds that are presented to define the campaign itself. In other words -- it would be fine for one set of those assumptions and completely useless for any other possible set of assumptions the campaign could make. This is why you split these things up.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

It's very disappointing, when I opened the book up I kept paging through it for the section on space ships and combat and another section on technology...nothing. Incredible.

Increadible?

Yes, I agree. It is increadible that they managed to avoid the temptation of putting their peaches and their grapes into the apple cart. Good job, SJG.