05-19-2010, 07:20 PM | #11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
One of our consultants on MA – and a personal friend – is qualifying for his MCMAP black belt ("for fun"). I'll ask about that.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
05-20-2010, 03:13 AM | #12 |
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
I agree that it should work like that, but it's not how it works. Look them up on the table. Under "Staff" skill, the spears and polearms list crushing attacks with the side or butt of the spear, but no Parry bonus.
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05-20-2010, 03:21 AM | #13 | |
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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So it seems to me the reasons to combine Staff and Spear are to get the quick Reach change, to strike with the butt, and to get a better Parry. And that last one demands Weapon Adaptation. So it seems sensible to at least include Weapon Adaptation as an optional perk. Or to relax the rules and allow spears the +2 to parry when parrying with Staff skill. Anyway, my questions have been answered. The Reach-change is a strong benefit, and the crushing attack would be at least intermittently valuable, so there is clearly some value in using the two skills. I'd still like to let spear-fighters with the Staff skill have a chance at that +2, but I'll have to think of the best way to achieve it. |
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05-20-2010, 04:16 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: France
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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Edit: Nevermind, I can't find a spear entry in the Staff tables, so I guess spears are just special weapons, balanced enough to be used as a fully functional quarterstaff/long staff. Last edited by Keeh; 05-20-2010 at 06:17 AM. |
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05-20-2010, 06:27 AM | #15 | |||
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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Going from p. 104, I'm going to assume that the Staff skill automatically gives you a +2 to Parry with spears and polearms. In that case, carry on. Nothing more to see here. |
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05-24-2010, 01:35 AM | #16 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
Ok, after looking through the books, reading this thread and making one myself that answered some of my questions this is how I understand things:
Anyone can use a polearm or spear with Staff skill EXCEPT that only weapons that do not become unready can be used with staff skill, which makes sense as staff skill is only for balanced weapons. That is you cant use a weapon with double-daggers (‡) with staff skill. [Evidence: In basic set the only polearm listed under staff is the naginata, the only polearm in the basic set that is not unready. The same is true in MA, the only polearms listed under staff is the ones without a ‡] When using a polearm with staff it get the following stat changes: Damage: Change to sw+2 cr/thr+2 cr. No matter what damage your weapon normally have. Reach: Change to 1,2 (or 2,3 for polearms that normally have reach 3). The benefit of this is that it doesn't cost an action to change between reach. Parry: Stays unchanged. You get 0U for swing, and 0 for thrust. YOU DO NOT GET +2. ST Is unchanged as well. Spears (unlike polearms) are a special case in that they do indeed get +2 Parry. This is backed up by the "switching skill" box in MA, and the fact that you could simply take a staff (with its +2 parry), and ad a spearpoint using the combination weapons rules, and presto, you got a spear. --------------------------------------- Now that, that is clear I fail to see what benefit Weapon Adaptation gives using spear or polearm with Staff skill? [edit] After some further consideration I'm back to my original thought. That for this combinatino: polearm or spear -> staff skill. the only benefit is you only have to pay for one skill (staff) but can use all the full polearm stats OR use it as a staff. Form Mastery has clear benefits in that it allow to switch between "staff mode" and "polearm mode" freely. I am however unsure what benefit it has with a Spear. A staff with a spearend on it (re. combination weapons) would still use staff right? just change it's dam to thr+3 imp instead of thr+2 cr? Unless you can't strike with a pointy stick without spear skill, the "switching "skill" [edit] Ok, I think the point here is that you simply can't strike for impaling with staff skill, even if it's a combination weapon staff with a pointy end. You HAVE to have spear skill to deal impaling dam with it. Last edited by Maz; 05-24-2010 at 02:47 AM. |
05-24-2010, 03:10 AM | #17 | |
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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WA is generally used where the skills and weapons are similar, but normally the weapon wouldn't be used with the skill. E.g. scimitar with the Saber skill, shortsword with the Smallsword skill. The write-up of the perk extends to any weapon used with any skill, but also states that most unlikely examples are not only cinematic, but silly. The main reason to use the perk is where the skill bestows skill-related bonuses that the weapon normally doesn't; basically, it's for using non-fencing sticks and swords with the fencing skills. WA to use a spear with Staff skill is legal, since the perk is so broad in its scope, but appears not to be counted as a realistic use. For, as near as I can tell, two reasons. First, the weapons are actually used differently. You don't stab with a staff, or fight with it one-handed, or throw it. You don't hold a spear across your body to block or strike with both ends (okay, you actually do, but part of this discussion is the difference, in GURPS terms, between Spear skill and spear-fighting). The second is because you can already use the staff skill to fight with a spear as though it were a staff. So the first instance (fighting with a staff as though it were a spear) is considered unrealistic and the second instance (fighting with a spear as though it were a staff) doesn't require the perk. As for the bonus, there appears to be either: a) an oversight (The spear isn't listed under the Staff skill at all in the Basic Set or in Martial Arts, and it doesn't mention that the +2 is available anywhere except that example on Martial Arts, p. 104. So maybe you were always intended to get the +2, but this was left out.) or b) an inconsistency or change (Certainly none of the polerarms listed under Staff skill in Martial Arts have the +2 bonus, so either the bonus is only available with the staff or spear, or there is an error on the table). I have decided that any spear or dueling polearm, used with Staff skill, gains the +2 to Parry. |
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05-24-2010, 03:33 AM | #18 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
Uhm, try to read the Weapon Adaptation skill again. It is allowed in a realistic game for any weapons that default to each other at -4 or less. This clearly include polearm to staff and spear to staff.
So it's all legal, also in a realistic game. The big questio nis, what d oyou get out of it? the biggest quesiton being "do polearms get +2 parry with staff skill", to which I have reached the conclusion, no they do not. Spears does however. And to say you do not thrust with a staff is obviously wrong both from a realistic-perspective but also from a games-perspective as the staff has a THRUST dam entry. ---- So yeah, something is wonky with this perk, which is why I ask about it. |
05-24-2010, 03:45 AM | #19 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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05-24-2010, 04:40 AM | #20 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?
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I had to correct you as those words are ONLY used for weapons on the other side of -4. You are reading "it's intended use" from an example and dismissing the rest of the text. If the onyl intention with the skill was to allow to use none-fencing weapons with fencing skill then it wouldn't make sense to include several lines about how it would work with other weapons (silly or not). This is not in the rules. True, Staffs are not listed under Spear, but then, neither are Spear listed under staff. you can't just assume one can be used without also assuming it works the other way around. Last edited by Maz; 05-24-2010 at 04:45 AM. |
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