Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I don't understand. Is the claim here this: Anything that gives the same outputs as Bill literally is Bill?

That seems to be the claim.

It strikes me as odd for a number of reasons. Most basically, suppose we do a superaccurate scan of me without killing me, and build a duplicate that produces the same outputs. That duplicate clearly is not me; I could talk with it, and I don't think I would be confused about which pair of eyes I was looking through.

So suppose I talk with it for a while, and then you toss a coin and cut the throat of one of us. I think it makes a difference to me which of us dies! I don't think that, if my throat is cut, I'll suddenly find myself looking down at my corpse bleeding on the floor, through the other guy's eyes. Not even if I have a dissociative "out of body" experience where I think I'm seeing myself die through his eyes. That will be what we call a hallucination.

If you make him, and put him in one room and me in another, and even if you don't tell me you've made him, it seems to me to be the same deal. That is, I don't think it's my perception of him as different that somehow keeps my consciousness from magically jumping into the other brain. I think it's the fact that information processing depends on signals, and there is one node of signals in my brain, and one node in his brain, and the two are disjoint.

And it doesn't seem to me to matter how short a time I live after he's made. It doesn't even matter if I die as he's being made.

The belief that "I" have been moved from one body to another seems to me like the illusion that, if you alternately light up two loci of phosphors on a screen, the dot is "jumping back and forth."

Bill Stoddard

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It strikes me as odd for a number of reasons. Most basically, suppose we do a superaccurate scan of me without killing me, and build a duplicate that produces the same outputs. That duplicate clearly is not me; I could talk with it, and I don't think I would be confused about which pair of eyes I was looking through.

The duplicate would think exactly the same thing though.

So suppose I talk with it for a while, and then you toss a coin and cut the throat of one of us. I think it makes a difference to me which of us dies! I don't think that, if my throat is cut, I'll suddenly find myself looking down at my corpse bleeding on the floor, through the other guy's eyes. Not even if I have a dissociative "out of body" experience where I think I'm seeing myself die through his eyes. That will be what we call a hallucination.

Yes, but the same thing happens if the original you wins the coin toss.

If you make him, and put him in one room and me in another, and even if you don't tell me you've made him, it seems to me to be the same deal. That is, I don't think it's my perception of him as different that somehow keeps my consciousness from magically jumping into the other brain. I think it's the fact that information processing depends on signals, and there is one node of signals in my brain, and one node in his brain, and the two are disjoint.

I'm not saying that "consciousness magically jumps". I'm saying that each brain generates that illusion of consciousness in the same way.

What if we did this while you were unconscious, so that both original and duplicate awaken together and we don't tell them which is which? Is there a difference in perception of self identity between them?

The belief that "I" have been moved from one body to another seems to me like the illusion that, if you alternately light up two loci of phosphors on a screen, the dot is "jumping back and forth."

I'm suggesting that while it is an illusion it's not any different from the illusions about consciousness that we already live with everyday.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What if we did this while you were unconscious, so that both original and duplicate awaken together and we don't tell them which is which? Is there a difference in perception of self identity between them?

One of them is the original, and the other one isn't. If you weren't lying to them, or hiding the truth from them, or otherwise manipulating the situation, but told them the history, they would both agree on that. I don't put any stock in arguments that turn on what people think when you prevent them from learning the actual facts of the situation. All you've done there is establish that people don't always know the truth—not that there isn't a truth to be known.

Bill Stoddard

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

One of them is the original, and the other one isn't. If you weren't lying to them, or hiding the truth from them, or otherwise manipulating the situation, but told them the history, they would both agree on that. I don't put any stock in arguments that turn on what people think when you prevent them from learning the actual facts of the situation. All you've done there is establish that people don't always know the truth—not that there isn't a truth to be known.

I'm not disputing that one is physically the original. I'm saying that if they wake up at the same time, then each current consciousness is emerging from unconscious processes simultaneously. The illusion that they are the same person isn't that different from the illusions that let them think they are "persons" (in the sense that we pretend we have rational volition and self-identity independent of the biological processes that these emerge from) in the first place.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not disputing that one is physically the original. I'm saying that if they wake up at the same time, then each current consciousness is emerging from unconscious processes simultaneously. The illusion that they are the same person isn't that different from the illusions that let them think they are "persons" (in the sense that we pretend we have rational volition and self-identity independent of the biological processes that these emerge from) in the first place.

Who thinks that? It's certainly not part of my self-concept. I find it ironic that you are arguing against my insistence on my identity as a biological organisms—by telling me that I am really a biological organism!

Bill Stoddard

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Yes, but there are numerous other steps simulated necessarily in order to fulfill that purpose,including the simulation of a physical nervous system and body.

Note _a_ physical nervous system and body. Not _the_ . Only the brain is scanned, the rest is guesswork or a standardized template.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

Only the brain is scanned, the rest is guesswork or a standardized template.

Eh, conclusion not supported by evidence. Only the brain is required to be scanned, but assuming the body is intact, there are no technical barriers to scanning it as well.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Eh, conclusion not supported by evidence. Only the brain is required to be scanned, but assuming the body is intact, there are no technical barriers to scanning it as well.

Nothing in the text refers to this taking place. The assumption in the text seems to be that a brain scan is sufficient.

Bill Stoddard

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Nothing in the text refers to this taking place. The assumption in the text seems to be that a brain scan is sufficient.

The text is pretty much unconcerned with whether a simulated body is required at all. If we assume a simulated body is actually needed, there's not much reason not to use a scan of the person being simulated.

[Pomphis]

THS 78: Memories are encoded within the physical structure
of the brain on the molecular level. Uploading is the
process of copying all this information into a digital form.
These upload recordings can be used to create a mind
emulation, a computer program that, when run on a sufficiently
potent computer, emulates the workings of the
original person’s mind.

A “ghost” is created via a destructive uploading (or
“brainpeeling”) process. Aliving or newly dead patient (or
his severed head) is placed into nanostasis. The brain is
removed and carefully sliced by robotic surgeons into multiple
tiny segments. Each segment is then scanned by a
hypersensitive magnetic resonance imager (HyMRI) or
other instrument. The data is used to create a digital reconstruction
of the patient’s brain configuration, called a
ghost.