Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

This is a very interesting discussion.

All I have to add is that counting unarmed skills, this talent would cover about 29 skills, or 27 at Lv 1 with OldSam's restrictions in place. It looks like you all feel that it should not be priced in the same way as a regular talent, though. Because it's just not valuable enough for 15+ pts/level, because few characters would actually use all of those skills, or because it's partly a house-rule meant to change the skill default rules?

OK, one more observation: if the talent only helps skills that are used at default, then Level 4 is the equivalent of putting 1 CP into each affected skill, and Level 3 is a bit like putting 1/2 point into each skill (3E style).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

This is a very interesting discussion.

All I have to add is that counting unarmed skills, this talent would cover about 29 skills, or 27 at Lv 1 with OldSam's restrictions in place. It looks like you all feel that it should not be priced in the same way as a regular talent, though. Because it's just not valuable enough for 15+ pts/level, because few characters would actually use all of those skills, or because it's partly a house-rule meant to change the skill default rules?

There's two factors:

1. There's extremely high redundancy between melee skills
2. Almost all 10 and 15 point talents are not worth their cost. This is a general problem with the Talent rules.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Right, they default off of each other so much. I had forgotten that.

Maybe Talent prices would be more reasonable if they were priced using the defaulting skills rule in Wildcards: a skill that defaults off another skill in the same Talent only counts as 1/2 a skill.

That would mean this Talent only "counts" as 17 skills, at most.


Should it also cover Garrote, Lance, Kosho, Cloak, Net, Combat Sport, or Combat Art? Should it create a default for Brawling?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Right, they default off of each other so much.

It's not so much defaulting as the fact that they tend to be solutions to the same problem -- using skill X means you aren't using skill Y. I would probably price a talent that included non-weapon skills at [10], though.

[khorboth]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm going to quibble here: Gurps default rules are generous in that they assume everyone has most defaults, and they are generous if you have high stats or skills in something else. There is nothing generous about giving a DX 11 sword-14 fighter skill 6 with an axe.

Your point is well taken. My basis for the statement was from when I set out to make a universal weapons master. I found that I only had to take... it's been a while, but I think it was only 3 or maybe 4 skills and the rest defaulted favorably enough to not worry about. If I recall correctly, it was shortsword, two-handed axe/mace, and spear. It's been a while and I don't have his sheet anymore, so I may be misremembering it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Your point is well taken. My basis for the statement was from when I set out to make a universal weapons master. I found that I only had to take... it's been a while, but I think it was only 3 or maybe 4 skills and the rest defaulted favorably enough to not worry about. If I recall correctly, it was shortsword, two-handed axe/mace, and spear. It's been a while and I don't have his sheet anymore, so I may be misremembering it.

You likely needed some additional skills to permit defaulting (GURPS doesn't allow defaulting off of a default, but does allow defaulting off of a skill raised from default). Checking, you don't actually need Spear. It appears what you actually need is:

• Axe/Mace. This gets you Axe/Mace and Flail. No other skills default from or two either of those skills.
• Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Two-Handed Flail raised from default, Polearm raised from default, Kusari raised from Two-Handed Flail default. All other pole weapons default from Polearm, all other Whip weapons default from Kusari.
• Shortsword, Broadsword raised from default, Knife raised from default. This gets you all Fencing and Sword class weapons (Main-Gauche is defaulting from Knife, Rapier and 2H Sword are defaulting from Broadsword, all others from Shortsword), as well as the Tonfa.

[Empada]

you can make it the same way of the Jack of all Trades.

DX [melee weapons default only, -80%] 4 points.

you can also limit the points spend in this DX form by the number of points spend in a melee weapons.

or

the level Y of this special DX limited by the relative skill level, DX+Y

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm going to quibble here: Gurps default rules are generous in that they assume everyone has most defaults, and they are generous if you have high stats or skills in something else. There is nothing generous about giving a DX 11 sword-14 fighter skill 6 with an axe.

I could see giving all weapons a -6 default to one another, if a more generous default didn't already exist.

So a DX 15, Broadsword 20 guy would at worst have all weapon skills at 14.

a +1 to all defenses is such a flat way feels a touch underwhelming, to tell the truth. Though I agree training in a different weapon should apply more to defense than to offense.

I have toyed with the idea in the past of making Combat Reflexes free to anyone spending 16 or more in combat skills.

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Simple advantage, perhaps:

Weapon Skill [5]
You have a broad understanding of melee combat. Your default for melee weapon skills is based on your highest melee weapon skill instead of your DX.

Nice, 5 points is where I'd put it to. Though I might put in a limit of "A skill higher than 20 counts as a 20".

I suppose you could do something similar for ranged, call it Ballistic Skill (in a nod to WFRP), and say it reflects an understanding of rangefinding, how projectiles move, and leading a target, but the range of actual physical mechanics for ranged weapons seems a bit broader - bows, slings, throwing, guns, and beam weapons all seem more different from each other than wielding an axe compared to a staff.

I'd break those into classes: Arrow/Bolt; Thrown/Sling; Slugthrower; Beam. And then just give a further -1 to defaulting out of class.

Originally Posted by Empada

you can make it the same way of the Jack of all Trades.

DX [melee weapons default only, -80%] 4 points.

Oh, nice. I forgot about JoAT when I was dabbling about with my Dabbler build above.

I'd allow for 5 levels to be bought at which point all weapon skills are treated as Default at DX (yes even the DX-6 ones).

[whswhs]

I think I don't see a need for it.

[Kax]

Originally Posted by OldSam

I was more looking at example situations like that:
A veteran sword fighter with DX 13 and Sword 15 (plus axe, plus dagger, plus unarmed experiences...) getting his hands on a spear for instance, but not having the spear or staff skill to make the point here.
On the opponent side we have a young soldier having his first real fights, also having DX 13 and maybe just Sword 13 and a little bit unarmed, not more. He also has to take his chances with a spear.


Which guy would you bet your money on? In GURPS? IRL?

A better example: an experienced combatant with DX 13 and Broadsword-15 and 10+ pt. in other combat skills versus a DX 13 beginning fighter with Spear-12.

I'm putting my money on the beginner, because spear is notably different in use--enough to mess up someone who can see an opening but doesn't know enough about his weapon to take advantage or see any mistakes being made by his beginner opponent.

This situation is why Brawling and/or Wrestling is advised and taught, so you can change the fight to something you're good at and doesn't involve the weapon you're facing.


Also, any combat talent that affects all skills that's cheaper than 15 pt./lvl is munchkin-cheap, or less than 10 pt./lvl if it's only defaults. It should cost at least as much per level as Combat Reflexes, really. And for some fighters that's still cost-effective.