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Old 11-05-2018, 05:07 PM   #11
OldSam
 
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
I feel like this is an unusual situation both in real life and in game.
Yes, of course, the example was chosen as a special "weak spot" for demonstration.

Maybe a more "common" issue (but being less concise) would be the raising other melee skills situation for the veteran: He already knows sword at 24 and is good at dagger and boxing and grappling etc., now wants to learn using a staff, but there are no useful defaults available.

It seems not right, though, that he only starts at attribute default, what about all these generic fighting insights? ...nothing...? Witha 1 CP investment he is just a total noob, though I would expect IRL that he would totally overcome another 1 CP noob without fighting background but with same attributes.


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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
In GURPS, like in real life, in would expect the veteran to make better use of the terrain and combat options like defensive attacks and feints to win the combat.
Basically that's a very good point, you're right. Though restrictions are always a tricky thing, can be quite harsh to say "your character is not experienced enough to use the feint maneuver"... Feels problematic and would also raise the question: How do you qualify?

Last edited by OldSam; 11-05-2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 11-05-2018, 05:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
Well, I disagree at that point (at least having 15 years of MA experience under my belt), but maybe I should stress that I'm actually talking about "real" broad fighting experience, not just swinging around some swords for instance ;) IME people trained in different fighting categories over the years develop a more complete picture of what is going on around them.
Sure, and my equal time in fights, both real, simulation (IE matches), and fake (LARP) offers a different insight.

What you are talking about is Combat Reflexes. That's what that bit of abstractness is covered under the abstraction that is GURPS. Probably also a higher DX, HT, and Basic Speed.

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Combat Reflexes is a really good point, yes, but for me it would not be enough for that aspect as there is no differentiation between a young and very quick guy (naturally talented fighter) for instance and a veteran fighter. What happens if the young guy is a veteran himsel laterf, how can we represet that progress? Only 1-2 more perks feels not enough for me...
Simple, you don't allow the "talented and quick" newb Character to take Combat Reflexes. You relegate that to 'veteran' status.

The newb instead should take higher Basic Speed or even take a higher DX.

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Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
He already knows sword at 24...
You've exceeded human norms and are venturing into territory that GURPS isn't as good at "simulating realistically".

Mr. Sword-24-Guy should have thrown some of those points around in other areas if he wants to be anything other Mr. Sword-24-Guy.

But, on the upside, even if he doesn't have a sword, he resists Feints with his swording skill.

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It seems not right, though, that he only starts at attribute default, what about all these generic fighting insights?
He gets those by not hyper-specializing.
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Old 11-05-2018, 07:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

I've toyed with a houserule where melee weapon defaults are from your highest melee skill as if it were DX. So a DX 13 swordsman with Broadsword-18 [20] gets defaults of
  • Shortsword-16 (normal default)
  • Two-Handed Sword-14 (normal default)
  • Spear-13 (Broadsword-5), instead of Spear-8 (DX-5)
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
I feel like this is an unusual situation both in real life and in game. GURPS default rules are pretty generous in melee situations.

I'm going to quibble here: Gurps default rules are generous in that they assume everyone has most defaults, and they are generous if you have high stats or skills in something else. There is nothing generous about giving a DX 11 sword-14 fighter skill 6 with an axe.



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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
I've toyed with a houserule where melee weapon defaults are from your highest melee skill as if it were DX. So a DX 13 swordsman with Broadsword-18 [20] gets defaults of
  • Shortsword-16 (normal default)
  • Two-Handed Sword-14 (normal default)
  • Spear-13 (Broadsword-5), instead of Spear-8 (DX-5)

That's equivalent to making all melee weapons default off of each other. That's... a really good rule. I actually thought the game ran that way until I checked. That will go a good way to solving this problem.


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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sure, and my equal time in fights, both real, simulation (IE matches), and fake (LARP) offers a different insight.

What you are talking about is Combat Reflexes. That's what that bit of abstractness is covered under the abstraction that is GURPS. Probably also a higher DX, HT, and Basic Speed.

a +1 to all defenses is such a flat way feels a touch underwhelming, to tell the truth. Though I agree training in a different weapon should apply more to defense than to offense.



----------------------------------------------------------------------



To answer the OP, I like the talent, and while the restriction is fiddly, its a good concept to prevent it from taking over the game. I have often tinkered with the concept of making a melee weapon talent, a ranged weapon talent, an unarmed combat talent, and an "athletics" talent, all at 5/level.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:02 AM   #15
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'm going to quibble here: Gurps default rules are generous in that they assume everyone has most defaults, and they are generous if you have high stats or skills in something else. There is nothing generous about giving a DX 11 sword-14 fighter skill 6 with an axe.
I agree. My basic viking combat training focuses on shield and sword, but honestly, the battle-axes we use aren't used that differently, though some of that is we're mainly dealing with unarmored foes, so if you get a blade on someone, they get cut.

Still:

Some axes can thrust; they have distinct upturns on the tip of the blade. These are used basically the same way as a sword in the thrust - you bring the center of rotation in a straight line to the target, same as the sword (though the center of rotation is, of course, in a different place).

The sword is dangerous its entire length; the axe, only on the sharp bits, which is usually just the blade.

The axe can hook on both pull and push; pushing with the top of the axe is remarkably effective at moving a foe's shield around. Hooking with the beard (or even without it) requires good footwork, but is very effective if your foe lacks said good footwork.

The top of the axe makes a small but effective parrying surface, though you have to be good and quick time-of-the-hand motions are going to be hard to defeat

But by and large, moving from sword to axe is a matter of unlearning a few things (the haft? Not that dangerous), and learning a few tricks of manipulation that the axe can do but the sword can't, and that the axe is a beat slower than our swords in certain motions.

It's definitely not a 6 or 8 point difference in skill level, though.

Quote:
That's equivalent to making all melee weapons default off of each other. That's... a really good rule. I actually thought the game ran that way until I checked. That will go a good way to solving this problem.
I like it too, for various reasons. The more I've studied various weapons and unarmed forms, the more I've seen similarities rather than differences. Might make it a bit too powerful; having a more-expensive weapon talent at 10 or 12 per level, and having all weapons default as techniques from that, would make the "buy one weapon at 4/level" builds a bit less inherently attractive, and you'd still be able to specialize at the 1-point technique cost to move those defaults around.
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

Interesting thought: If all melee weapons did default to each other, you could look at the average default across the board, and would effectively have a "base melee skill," which might be useful for other applications.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That's equivalent to making all melee weapons default off of each other. That's... a really good rule. I actually thought the game ran that way until I checked. That will go a good way to solving this problem.
Plus side - Simplifies the heck out of the problem.

Minus side - Players will probably stop buying other melee weapon skills. +1 to effective skill with every melee weapon including your primary one is only 4 pts, which is better than the melee combat talent advantage proposed above by the OP.

Doing it with a perk might be a good compromise, to distinguish on the sheet between the monomaniac specialists and those with broad combat experience.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

I've actually toyed with a "Natural Warrior" advantage or talent for a while, to represent mythic-style heroes who are just naturally good with combat, and who can pick up new fighting styles and weapons more easily than the average person. I never found anything balanced/useful enough to use in a campaign - I'm looking closely at ideas here, and like what I see so far.
Maybe require "Unusual Background" as a prerequisite to the more efficient weapon skill buys?
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Old 11-06-2018, 09:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

There are already chains of defaults that people can develop. For example, a DX 12 character can spend 48 CP on Broadsword-24, giving them Shortsword-22 and Rapier, Saber, and Two-Handed Sword-20. If they further spend 8 CP buying Shortsword-24, they receive Jitte/Sai, Knife, and Tonfa-21 and Smallsword-20. With 56 CP, they are masters in nine melee combat skills.
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Old 11-06-2018, 10:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Plus side - Simplifies the heck out of the problem.

Minus side - Players will probably stop buying other melee weapon skills. +1 to effective skill with every melee weapon including your primary one is only 4 pts, which is better than the melee combat talent advantage proposed above by the OP.

Doing it with a perk might be a good compromise, to distinguish on the sheet between the monomaniac specialists and those with broad combat experience.
Simple advantage, perhaps:

Weapon Skill [5]
You have a broad understanding of melee combat. Your default for melee weapon skills is based on your highest melee weapon skill instead of your DX.

I think 5 points fits the pentaphilia of GURPS and puts enough opportunity cost on the advantage that it's not an auto buy for anyone who isn't dedicated to combat (or swimming in points) - after all, for 5 points you can get five weapon skills, or spells, or...

I suppose you could do something similar for ranged, call it Ballistic Skill (in a nod to WFRP), and say it reflects an understanding of rangefinding, how projectiles move, and leading a target, but the range of actual physical mechanics for ranged weapons seems a bit broader - bows, slings, throwing, guns, and beam weapons all seem more different from each other than wielding an axe compared to a staff.
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