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Old 10-12-2018, 03:03 PM   #1
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Animals and fire

A bear moves 8 MA and engages two characters. The third character, a wizard safely two hexes away, creates fire in the bear's hex. The bear needs to move out of the fire hex. The bear cannot move/shift and stay engaged with both characters. The bear cannot initiate HTH since neither character's back is against a wall and they definitely don't want to have HTH with a bear

Does the bear:
1) Shift one hex during movement disengaging from one of the figures and use disengage without further movement during it's option phase?
2) Stay in the fire hex
3) Stay in the fire hex and use the disengage option to move one hex during the action phase?
4) Do something else?

I tend to think that #3 is the correct reading of the rules, though it's counterintuitive, but #1 is the realistic approach to the problem.

If #3, does the bear suffer an additional 2 or 4 hits in the disengage turn since it stays in the hex until the action phase and, according to my understanding of the fire spell (ITL pg 19), the first turn used up the bear's protection and since the bear was not moving during the movement phase, should suffer all 4 points in the second turn in the fire hex - even though it's out of the hex at the end of the turn.
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Last edited by Helborn; 10-12-2018 at 03:04 PM. Reason: corrected typo
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:17 PM   #2
platimus
 
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Under the impression that spells take effect immediately (and not at end of turn)...

#1 If the bear has already acted that turn.
#3 If the bear gets to act before his next movement.

Basically, he will take whichever option presents itself first. That's what I would do if I were standing in fire! LOL
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
(...) The bear cannot move/shift and stay engaged with both characters (...)
why not?
any figure can always shif one hex during movement, even if this means disengaging from someone.

if the fire appears in its hex during the action phase and the bear still has to act, I think diseganging is the correct choice
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
any figure can always shif one hex during movement, even if this means disengaging from someone.
No, see here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL103
An engaged figure may move only one hex during
the movement phase, and must stay adjacent to all figures to
which it is engaged; this is called a shift.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
No, see here:
Oh yeah.

So, why can't the bear initiate HTH?
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #6
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Turn 1:
The bear moves 8 hexes and engages two fighters.
The fighters attack the bear (amount of damage is assumed to be less than enough to cause the bear to fall down)
The wizard creates a fire hex in the bear's hex.
The bear has moved more than 1/2 MA and can do nothing but wait. It's skin protects it from the 2 points of damage from the fire

Turn 2:
Bear has initiative and moves first - or does it? It cannot shift even one hex and stay engaged with both figures. It cannot attempt HTH since the conditions are not met for HTH. It cannot stay in the fire hex (ITL pg 19)
Bear MUST ? choose disengage option to leave the fire hex!

Disengage option only takes place during the option phase after movement. Fire "puts 4 hits on anything ending its move in the hex" (ITL pg 140) However, the bear is not "ending it's movement in the hex" since it will move during the Option Phase. I do read the rules as saying that the 4 hits happen at the end of the movement phase so the bear should burn for 4 hits.

Just seems illogical.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:38 PM   #7
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Animals and fire

There are only 4 conditions when a figure can initiate HTH:

ITL pg 116

A figure may move into an enemy figure’s hex, initiating HTH combat, if (a) the enemy has his back to the wall, or is lying down, prone, or kneeling, or (b) the enemy has a lower MA, or (c) the attacker comes in from the rear, or (d) the enemy agrees to HTH combat. Initiating HTH combat is
considered an attack.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:42 PM   #8
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Oh yeah.

So, why can't the bear initiate HTH?
Because the rules for initiating HTH are weird. It looks like the intent of the conditions is that a a target that is free to maneuver cannot be engaged in HTH (since you can engage someone with his back to a wall), but rather than something like "if you move into an opponent's hex and none of these conditions apply, the figure is displaced one hex away in a direction of its choice", the rules just forbid entering the hex. Which is much simpler, of course.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Because the rules for initiating HTH are weird. It looks like the intent of the conditions is that a a target that is free to maneuver cannot be engaged in HTH (since you can engage someone with his back to a wall), but rather than something like "if you move into an opponent's hex and none of these conditions apply, the figure is displaced one hex away in a direction of its choice", the rules just forbid entering the hex. Which is much simpler, of course.
Yeah, that's just weird...and bad. If the target doesn't agree to HTH, it should have to move if it is less ST than the attacker.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:30 AM   #10
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Default Re: Animals and fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
No, see here:
uhmm this has been discussed in this forum recently.

it seems that literally rules allow a figure to "disengage" by a shift if it remains "adjacent to all enemies that ingages it" (i.e. he can shift out of the enemy front hexes remaining adjacent).

adjacent is not the same of engaged
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