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Old 03-12-2018, 05:54 AM   #171
L.J.Steele
 
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Isn't it kind of like most professions: you prepare extensively, for the express purpose of making the critical moments as boring (i.e. close to your expectations) as possible? Most of the actual work does not take place in the courtroom.
Yes and no. Trial work is much more improv than appeal. At trial, you're at the risk of whatever comes out of a witness' mouth. No matter how much you've talked with the witness and rehearsed him/her for trial, you will get things that make you want to face palm.

The attorneys are making objections which the judge must rule upon without a lot of time to think or look at references. Sometimes it's the right objection and ruling, sometimes not. When it's not, and it matters, then the appellate attorney may have work to do.

Closing and motion arguments are also tricky times where the attorneys are relying on memory and maybe contemporaneous notes, and they do get stuff wrong. Again, if it matters, then it may be an appellate matter.

For appeal, it's the opposite. The bulk of the work is in the briefs (summaries of the argument and facts). The court time is a short (30-60 minute) formal Q&A session with the judges where they can ask questions about the facts and law. Sometimes judges do come up with things seemingly out of left field, but a decent appellate attorney should be able to anticipate the weak spots and likely questions.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:01 PM   #172
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

One thing that is a possible foundation for a new system is that in several Western nations there is to much power devolved to unelected or even uncrowned executive branch Mandarins. If Charles I pushes to hard on his new naval budget you can always cut his head off but if the navy is pressuring to hard for money for an impressive but obsolete platform you have to dig out a lot of red tape. Not to mention they can always keep decisions within the frame of a tight oligarchy by appealing to expertise("who the heck are you to say the bomber won't really always get through, you're just a voter").

On the other hand the obvious solution of giving legislators executive commands as a second hat(for instance both Honor Harrington and Miles Vorkosigan were parliamentarians as well as an admiral and an internal investigator respectively and in real life Fitzroy Maclean was a parliamentarian, an army officer, and a local aristocrat at the same time) makes for a decline in professionalism. Furthermore as much abuse comes from legislators using their bias for a given allotment of funds(like a naval base)distract from their duty to the common interest.

This is not an idea in itself so much as a tangle of problems. What it is however is a challenge for an interesting way to solve it.

Having Parliamentarians wear second hats actually has worked in the past. But it required them to be cultivated in a culture which enabled that, perhaps at the cost of being over hierarchial. After all haberdashers from Missouri can make pretty good Presidents or at least better then most, but that does not mean they are good at specialized jobs. On the other hand no haberdasher is going to out do the career of Aral Vorkosigan's son on Barrayar even if he is physically fit. The advantage gained of getting a class bred to rule is considerable but so is the cost.

What I am looking for is basically a way to

A) Curb the Executive mandarins

while B) Maintaining technical proficiency

and C) avoid creating a brittle or overweighted aristocracy that will destroy itself after making everyone else's life miserable. An aristocracy of some kind is permissible but it should have something of a slack-one that does permit an occasional haberdasher to be chief executive for instance.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:37 PM   #173
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
One thing that is a possible foundation for a new system is that in several Western nations there is to much power devolved to unelected or even uncrowned executive branch Mandarins. If Charles I pushes to hard on his new naval budget you can always cut his head off but if the navy is pressuring to hard for money for an impressive but obsolete platform you have to dig out a lot of red tape.

On the other hand the obvious solution of giving legislators executive commands as a second hat(for instance both Honor Harrington and Miles Vorkosigan were parliamentarians as well as an admiral and an internal investigator respectively and in real life Fitzroy Maclean was a parliamentarian, an army officer, and a local aristocrat at the same time) makes for a decline in professionalism. Furthermore as much abuse comes from legislators using their bias for a given allotment of funds(like a naval base)distract from their duty to the common interest.

This is not an idea in itself so much as a tangle of problems. What it is however is a challenge for an interesting way to solve it.

Having Parliamentarians wear second hats actually has worked in the past. But it required them to be cultivated in a culture which enabled that, perhaps at the cost of being over hierarchial. After all haberdashers from Missouri can make pretty good Presidents or at least better then most, but that does not mean they are good at specialized jobs. On the other hand no haberdasher is going to out do the career of Aral Vorkosigan's son on Barrayar even if he is physically fit. The advantage gained of getting a class bred to rule is considerable but so is the cost.

What I am looking for is basically a way to

A) Curb the Executive mandarins

while B) Maintaining technical proficiency

and C) avoid creating a brittle or overweighted aristocracy that will destroy itself after making everyone else's life miserable. An aristocracy of some kind is permissible but it should have something of a slack-one that does permit an occasional haberdasher to be chief executive for instance.
<shrug> It is already the case that countries such the United Kingdom and Canada have members of the legislature appointed to be the heads of civil service bureaus and the overall government.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:43 PM   #174
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An hereditary monarchy where the (female) ruler has multiple husbands each of whom is made head of one of the branches of the civil service.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:27 PM   #175
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

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<shrug> It is already the case that countries such the United Kingdom and Canada have members of the legislature appointed to be the heads of civil service bureaus and the overall government.
Which in fact was alluded to and is a partial solution. Are there any other ideas of solving the problem? The essence is that rule follows power and power in modern times follows information-not just in the sense of propaganda but in the sense of technique.

In a way it is the same difficulty that our ancestors worried about with standing armies, the difficulty of dependency on an overpowerful and potentially treacherous institution. While modern bureaucracies in most western states are not usually treacherous in the legal sense(they are honestly to boring for that), they do sometimes have policies which support their internal interests.

The main thing I am looking for is using this as a baseline for an "exotic government" idea meant to solve it.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:28 PM   #176
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

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An hereditary monarchy where the (female) ruler has multiple husbands each of whom is made head of one of the branches of the civil service.
Now that is just weird enough to be interesting.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:43 PM   #177
David Johnston2
 
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A quasi-caste society run by "professional associations" who elect one of their number to be in charge of government agency to which they are relevant and together they form the ruling council for the state as a whole. So medical professionals elect the Councillor for Health, military men elect the Councillor for War, law enforcement elect the Councillor for Public Order. And of course that means that those who are not a member of an association are left unrepresented and the obstacles to joining are notable if you aren't the child of someone who is already a member.

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Old 03-14-2018, 07:56 PM   #178
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
One thing that is a possible foundation for a new system is that in several Western nations there is to much power devolved to unelected or even uncrowned executive branch Mandarins. If Charles I pushes to hard on his new naval budget you can always cut his head off but if the navy is pressuring to hard for money for an impressive but obsolete platform you have to dig out a lot of red tape. Not to mention they can always keep decisions within the frame of a tight oligarchy by appealing to expertise("who the heck are you to say the bomber won't really always get through, you're just a voter").

On the other hand the obvious solution of giving legislators executive commands as a second hat(for instance both Honor Harrington and Miles Vorkosigan were parliamentarians as well as an admiral and an internal investigator respectively and in real life Fitzroy Maclean was a parliamentarian, an army officer, and a local aristocrat at the same time) makes for a decline in professionalism. Furthermore as much abuse comes from legislators using their bias for a given allotment of funds(like a naval base)distract from their duty to the common interest.

This is not an idea in itself so much as a tangle of problems. What it is however is a challenge for an interesting way to solve it.

Having Parliamentarians wear second hats actually has worked in the past. But it required them to be cultivated in a culture which enabled that, perhaps at the cost of being over hierarchial. After all haberdashers from Missouri can make pretty good Presidents or at least better then most, but that does not mean they are good at specialized jobs. On the other hand no haberdasher is going to out do the career of Aral Vorkosigan's son on Barrayar even if he is physically fit. The advantage gained of getting a class bred to rule is considerable but so is the cost.

What I am looking for is basically a way to

A) Curb the Executive mandarins

while B) Maintaining technical proficiency

and C) avoid creating a brittle or overweighted aristocracy that will destroy itself after making everyone else's life miserable. An aristocracy of some kind is permissible but it should have something of a slack-one that does permit an occasional haberdasher to be chief executive for instance.
How is this different from the number of British MPs who were either Royal Navy or British Army officers at the same time?
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:18 PM   #179
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

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How is this different from the number of British MPs who were either Royal Navy or British Army officers at the same time?
I did not say it was different. In fact I came pretty close to saying right out that was one solution. That was the point. I was asking for other ideas to solve the problem that would be interesting to think about. I was not making a suggestion I was asking for other people's suggestions.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:20 PM   #180
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A quasi-caste society run by "professional associations" who elect one of their number to be in charge of government agency to which they are relevant and together they form the ruling council for the state as a whole. So medical professionals elect the Councillor for Health, military men elect the Councillor for War, law enforcement elect the Councillor for Public Order. And of course that means that those who are not a member of an association are left unrepresented and the obstacles to joining are notable if you aren't the child of someone who is already a member.
Now that's a good one.
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