How Strong are Pi++ Fists?

[Minuteman37]

Playing around with the strength chart becouse I had an idea for a supers game and I'm wondering at what point are you crushing damage fists so strong and fast they're basically big bullets? I'm looking at a character that has a thrust of 6d+1 and I'm having a hard time imagining his punch not going right through a person.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Playing around with the strength chart becouse I had an idea for a supers game and I'm wondering at what point are you crushing damage fists so strong and fast they're basically big bullets? I'm looking at a character that has a thrust of 6d+1 and I'm having a hard time imagining his punch not going right through a person.

There are actually rules for something like this in Chapter 7 of GURPS Supers.

[Ji ji]

No clear breakpoint.
First problem is that ST damage is not an abstraction of something like bullet damage with energy; it is purely arbitrary.
Second problem is that 6d+1 damage could represent very different ST attacks with regard to penetration and wound channel, i.e. a tentacle is different from a punch or an elbow, and a fast light punch is different from a slow heavy one.

So a 6d+1 could literally be a crushing or piercing attack depending on several factors like weight, speed, shape, rigidity and so on.

[Bicorn]

Also let's not forget the general GURPS principle for abilities: "you get what you pay for". If you want pi++ fists you need to buy it as an advantage (a variant of Claws). Just adding new rules at arbitrary breakpoints is almost never a good idea.

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by Ji ji

No clear breakpoint.
First problem is that ST damage is not an abstraction of something like bullet damage with energy; it is purely arbitrary.
Second problem is that 6d+1 damage could represent very different ST attacks with regard to penetration and wound channel, i.e. a tentacle is different from a punch or an elbow, and a fast light punch is different from a slow heavy one.

So a 6d+1 could literally be a crushing or piercing attack depending on several factors like weight, speed, shape, rigidity and so on.

I'm talking about human fists, no need for a universally applicable answer.

Originally Posted by Bicorn

Also let's not forget the general GURPS principle for abilities: "you get what you pay for". If you want pi++ fists you need to buy it as an advantage (a variant of Claws). Just adding new rules at arbitrary breakpoints is almost never a good idea.

I'll run my gamed my way, and you your way. As long as my group is having fun I don't much care for principles.

[Ji ji]

There is no real answer for your question applied to human fists. Piercing damage models a specific phenomenon, bullet penetration, which hugely depends on the characteristics of the materials involved. Consider that in all but the the slower bullets, penetration regime involves deformation or erosion of a bullet much stronger than target material. If those 6d+1 are caused by something different from crushing, then the fist itself is exploding.

In other words: you are looking for a phenomenon that is completely cinematic and unrealistic, like people thrown away by bullets. No way to model it in a “realistic” way. Just use your arbitrium.

[Tomsdad]

Ironically if you use the overpenetration rules and we're talking big damage you might well want to stay with Cr rather the Pi++, as you get more immediate damage!

(you get some benefit on some armour types as well)

Ultimately the difference between Pi++ and Cr gets odd at this point as impact velocity increases (and that's before we get into questions of realism and super punches which are as much a matter of in game setting assumptions as real life physics)

EDIT: One thing I might do is add a house rule regarding high damage Cr attacks and vitals. Currently MA allows you to target vitals with a Cr attack and gives you a Knockdown bonus but not a injury multiplier. I might consider allowing a Cr attack that hits the vitals and does more than say the overpenetration threshold (i.e more than HPx1) in basic damage after DR also gets the vital x3 injury multiplier. Organs can get ruptured, crushed and pulverized by severe enough blunt trauma, just as they can get penetrated or impaled, after all.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by silveroak

... if you have ST: 60 your fist does 7d crushing, while if you pick up a weapon like a dagger which penetrates a smaller surface area and has a point then you are doing 7d-1 imp.

It's worse than that... weapons only go up to triple minimum ST for damage. So for a dagger that's ST 15 maximum, with ST 60 you are better off just hitting them with your fists.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It's worse than that... weapons only go up to triple minimum ST for damage. So for a dagger that's ST 15 maximum, with ST 60 you are better off just hitting them with your fists.

Good Point!

(I do find that a weird rule, I do like DouglasCole's article on weapon breakage here)

[(E)]

Random thought
Melee weapons are usually harder than human hands, bullets tend to deform while delivering the higher damage too.