One-Handed Spear Reach and Reversed Grip

[CarrionPeacock]

I've seem someone complaining about this elsewhere and it intrigued me, why is it so hard to attack someone at 2 yards with a spear, the quintessential long reach weapon?
With the ordinary spear you either have to wield it with two hands, giving up shield, or use All-out Attack (Long). With the long spear, you can't attack a foe a yard away and lose the ability to parry unless wielding it with both hands.
Another question is about reversed grip, what is the exact result when using it with a spear? A spear hold in one hand has reach 1, so does it become reach C or does it keep reach 1 because its long shaft? What about long spears, at first they seem unqualified to be used with reversed grip due to the max reach of 3 but they can be wielded for reach 2, does it change anything?

[AlexanderHowl]

It is the grip. To use a spear one-handed, you have to grip the spear at the middle of the haft. You can grip it at the base when using it two-handed, giving you more reach. When you are using a reverse grip, you reverse while holding the middle one-handed, meaning that head is only a foot from your elbow, so it is a C reach.

[Tomsdad]

Personally I wouldn't reduce reach with a 1 handed spear used with a reverse overarm grip. You are still basically holding the spear at the same balance point as you would for a one handed underarm grip so there should be no reduction of range*. It's a better grip for shield walls etc.


There is a question about the reach value of one handed normal spears though. But I think it really comes down to the granularity of the reach rules and spears being subdivided into hard and fast categories (which is kind of unavoidable in a playable system)

There was recent thread where this was discussed and some options suggested




*you could of course grip closer to the point to reduce your stabbing range. but then you have to deal with the rest of the haft behind you. I think the long weapon in CC rules cover the difficulty. (Points in the mitigating technique cover training for that as well). Of course again having the hard and fast categories has an effect here, It's easier to hold and wield a 6ft spear 1ft from it's point and use in it CC, than an 8ft spear.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You are still basically holding the spear at the same balance point as you would for a one handed underarm grip so there should be no reduction of range*.

You hold a knife or sword at the exact same point for both normal and reversed grip, too. Seems reasonable that if they get it, the spear should get it for the same reason.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

You hold a knife or sword at the exact same point for both normal and reversed grip, too. Seems reasonable that if they get it, the spear should get it for the same reason.

They get it because you are striking in an entirely different manner.

You don't make those sorts of attacks with a spear, especially not a two-handed spear. I mean, I guess you could make an awkward reverse grip strike with a one handed spear... but it wouldn't be an efficient use of your time.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

You hold a knife or sword at the exact same point for both normal and reversed grip, too. Seems reasonable that if they get it, the spear should get it for the same reason.

Not really, if you hold a sword in a reversed grip the blade extends down from your hand and you'll lose some of the flexibility in the wrist for directing it that is normally used when fighting with a sword the right way up. Not only is the range of thrusting motion significantly restricted (including striking range) i.e basically what the rule currently is.

This is more to do with the difference between the way you hold and thrust with a spear overhand, the arm tends to be held up high with bent elbow and then extended forward like a javelin throw, and you hand moving on the shaft to keep your thrust straight vs. keeping a grip on shorter sword hilt. Compared to fighting that way with a sword of any length greater that short would be more awkward IMO/E*.


I think part of the problem here is really when it comes to one handed spear use there's really not much difference between overhand (reversed) and underarm ("normal") grips, not in terms of the difficulties cited in the reversed grip rule. The differences are more about where the spear is positioned relative to you and your shield. If you do have a shield and if you do overhead thrusts is allows you keep you shield in place and thrusts are easier than if you try underhand thrust, however this effect is more relevant if you are in a shield wall than fighting individually and likely with more ability to move about).

Overhand thrust are a bit stronger so you can justify the extra point of damage I guess, but spears were regularly used over hand, one handed and I wouldn't apply the other effects. Which functionally means they get +1 damage for free if you do apply the +1 damage thrust rule.

(FWIW I can certainly think of some strong overarm two handed grips)



However IME when used overhead one handed spears are slightly harder to parry with, when compared to using a underhand grip so I could see penalising parries with say -1 to balance the above. (this is of course less of an issue if you have a shield)



* I kind of look at this being part of a spear's flexibility

[Tomsdad]

As an aside, has anyone got much experience of styles that actually employs one handed reversed grip on full length swords as a general thing (other than stabbing prone or vulnerable opponents).

The closest I can think off is some half swording techniques were one hand on the grip in reversed and held high, the second hand is on the blade directing and in front of you (like some two handed high spear stances)

[tanksoldier]

Watch the old Highlander TV series.

The main character uses reverse grip on a katana quite frequently.

Longsword half swording:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn36Pb8z3yI

[mhd]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Watch the old Highlander TV series.

The main character uses reverse grip on a katana quite frequently.

As does the main character from Equilibrium, both probably emulating the old Zato Ichi series. Not sure whether Zato does that because he's referencing some actual Japanese sword ryu, or whether it's simply because after a parry the enemy's sword tends to slide downwards and his sword doesn't have a guard.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Watch the old Highlander TV series.

The main character uses reverse grip on a katana quite frequently.

Well OK I was kind of not counting popular media (you see it alot in computer games as well).

Edit: but talking of Katana's (well ok Daisho), isn't there a school/style that had the wakizashi to parry in the off had that occasionally used a reverse grip?

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Longsword half swording:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn36Pb8z3yI

Well I did mention two handed half swording earlier ;-).

However having watched a couple of times I'm not sure there's actually any reverse grip in there*?

1:02 comes closest I think, with the downward half sword stab on the prone opponent, but I can't quite see the hand's position on the grip to be sure.

1:47 maybe (but I don't think so) when one half sword's and winds & binds the other's sword out of his grip

Nice video, cheers for the link!



*lots of showing off how mobile ordinary grips were in terms of moving a blade about, even when two handed or half swording!