Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2018, 08:08 AM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Scottish America

I was just musing in another thread and had a strange thought. What if Columbus had failed to return from his voyage due to an accident, disease, violence, weather, etc and the first people to stumble upon America and made it back to report their claim had been the Scottish during the early 16th century? How do you think that the Scottish colonization of the Americas would have been different than the Spanish colonization of the Americas?

While the Scots were not terribly kind people, they had a different cultural perspective than the Spanish. First, their cultural enemy was not the Muslims but, instead, the English. Second, they were an ally of France and an enemy of England while the Spanish were an ally of England and an enemy of France. Third, while they had a tradition of warfare, they did not have the traditions of conquest, expulsion, genocide, imperialism, and slavery that the Spanish had evolved during the Reconquista.

Now, I am not saying that things would have gone much better had the Scottish rather than the Spanish been first, but I think that it not have gone much worse for the Native Americans. I do think that such a discovery may have prevented James V from making the raid of England that ended with his death in 1542. With the New World to explore, he may have survived for another 30 to 50 years, depending on his health.

So, what do you think? Would you use such a setting? If so, how would you present the changes that having the Scots being the first nation to claim the New World and attempt to colonize/trade with it?
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 08:38 AM   #2
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Scottish America

Of course, a lot of the people who ended up settling North America were Scots - Canada in particular is full of them.

I'm also not convinced that you can characterise the Spanish as "an ally of England" ... especially in the New World.
The Colonel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 08:44 AM   #3
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: Scottish America

Attempts by the Scots to found colonies in our history went poorly. However, once they were running England's empire, and calling it British, they were very successful. I say that looks like an argument for Scotland being to small and poor to be successful imperialists.

However, if the Scots got to someplace like New England first, without Spanish contact bringing the Native Americans Eurasian diseases first, the Scots, tough as they are, would have been tossed out. Scotland was never as conected to the Eurasian microfauna as the Mediterranean nation were. So the New World might get a slower introduction to European diseases. Native American cultures might do far better.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo

Last edited by Astromancer; 09-09-2018 at 08:57 AM.
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 09:30 AM   #4
Turhan's Bey Company
Aluminated
 
Turhan's Bey Company's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: East of the moon, west of the stars, close to buses and shopping
Default Re: Scottish America

We know that Europeans found the New World well before Columbus. There were Vikings in Newfoundland in the 11th century, and there's a hypothesis that some Basque fishermen found the Grand Banks and set up camps to dry cod on Newfoundland as well. The Vikings left because they didn't find it profitable, and the Basques--if they did indeed go there--worked very hard to keep it a secret.

So, then, it appears that the trick is not discovering the New World or parts thereof, but rather finding reasons to keep going back. In our history, Columbus kicked things off by bringing back a bit of gold, indicating that there were still riches to be had even if he hadn't made it to India after all. The prospective Scottish explorers need to bring back something valuable, and I'm not sure Canada's Atlantic seaboard, lovely as it is, has that.

And even then, it won't be the Scots in complete possession or even as a majority in the New World. At the time, multiple European powers were experimenting with western routes to Asia. For example, a mere five years after Columbus, John Cabot, flying an English flag, duplicated the Vikings' feat of discovering Newfoundland while searching for the mythical northwest passage.

I'm not sure, then, that replacing Columbus with a later Scotsman makes an awful lot of difference. Expeditions to the west are first going to be focused on finding either Asia or some kind of valuable native goods. Once that happens, the floodgates open to all of Europe. Maybe we get an independent Scottish Canada (not likely, I think, but within the realm of gameable plausibility), but Spain and Portugal, which are many miles closer to the sunny, fertile Caribbean and the more developed portions of the Americas in Mexico and Peru, still has an edge on colonization there. History ends up broadly the same, but differs in details.

So, then, to move this in the direction of a playable campaign: It is the middle of the 18th century. The Americas from the Gulf Coast on down are a patchwork of Spanish and Portuguese colonies; since somebody else found the New World first, there was no treaty of Tordesillas to separate Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence. The French and Dutch are fighting over the "middle colonies" from our Georgia through our New Jersey, give or take, for dominance of the lucrative tobacco trade (England has sold out its interests to the French and Dutch and withdrawn from the New World in favor of pursuing trade in the Far East, where it is in more direct conflict with Spain and Portugal). North of there, the exiled "Bonnie King Charlie" rules the hardscrabble colonies Occidental Hibernia and plots--probably in vain--to retake the homeland. There's lots of fightin' going on, lots of espionage, exploration of the interior is a possibility, and lots and lots of opportunity for smuggling.
__________________
I've been making pointlessly shiny things, and I've got some gaming-related stuff as well as 3d printing designs.

Buy my Warehouse 23 stuff, dammit!
Turhan's Bey Company is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 10:04 AM   #5
tanksoldier
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Scottish America

“Discovering” maybe, but I do not see Scotland having the economic power to sustain and defend a major colonization effort.

Also, as noted the parts of North America the scots would encounter don’t have much direct economic value.
tanksoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 10:23 AM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Scottish America

Well, the reason for the failure of the Scottish colony in Panama during the late 17th century was not due to Scottish incompetence, it was due to opposition from the English and the Spanish. Anyway, I am not sure if the Scottish would have been interested in conquest, as they always had to worry about the English. Instead, I think they would have been looking to trade and would have only looked to colonize territories if they had found uninhabited land.

I am imagining a scenario where King James V of Scotland sponsors an exploration fleet to seek out islands similar to the Azores for colonization (if uninhabited) or trade (if inhabited). The Scottish exploration fleet stumbles upon the Bahamas and, since it is obviously inhabited, trades metal implements for gold and cotton before following the currents to explore further north. They would have likely stopped in the Algonquian territories and traded metal implements for furs and tobacco while they repaired and resupplied their ships before they continued home. If they followed the North Atlantic current, they would have had a much easier time of getting home than Columbus. When they returned to Scotland, James V would have probably reached out to France for funding for establishing trading posts and building trading fleets in order for both countries to become wealthier.

Now, one thing that the Scots would have likely done is talked up the benefits of trading with themselves and their traditional allies, the French, and would have likely warned the Native Americans against the English and their allies, the Portuguese and the Spanish. When the English, Portuguese, and Spanish attempted to follow the Scottish success, they would have encountered a population that had already been warned against their deprivations, so they would have immediately faced a distrustful, if not hostile, native population that the Scottish were busily arming in exchange for vast amounts of gold, cotton, furs, and tobacco.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 10:51 AM   #7
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: Scottish America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
So, then, to move this in the direction of a playable campaign: It is the middle of the 18th century. The Americas from the Gulf Coast on down are a patchwork of Spanish and Portuguese colonies; since somebody else found the New World first, there was no treaty of Tordesillas to separate Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence. The French and Dutch are fighting over the "middle colonies" from our Georgia through our New Jersey, give or take, for dominance of the lucrative tobacco trade (England has sold out its interests to the French and Dutch and withdrawn from the New World in favor of pursuing trade in the Far East, where it is in more direct conflict with Spain and Portugal). North of there, the exiled "Bonnie King Charlie" rules the hardscrabble colonies Occidental Hibernia and plots--probably in vain--to retake the homeland. There's lots of fightin' going on, lots of espionage, exploration of the interior is a possibility, and lots and lots of opportunity for smuggling.
So, New York, New England, and Canada are the basis of an American Scotland. That's gameable. Charlie was a lousy leader and what I know of his life suggests that he wouldn't really be running "Occidental Hibernia." He'd be too busy either drinking, wrenching, or running off to have adventures.

I assume piracy in the Americas would last longer in this world. English Merchants wouldn't care so much and the Scots were quick to trade with the Pirates as long as they left them alone. Also, the Bonnie King would likely be free and easy with Letters of Mark if paid well enough.

Run this forward a couple of centuries and the combo of Canada, New England, and New York looks like a fairly strong nation to me. It would have more people than France or Italy. The resources would be lush, and if the people are culturally Scots, the educational system would be impressive.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 11:51 AM   #8
tbone
 
tbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Scottish America

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
If so, how would you present the changes that having the Scots being the first nation to claim the New World and attempt to colonize/trade with it?
Sweeping historical changes are one thing, but it's also fun to imagine the little "parallel world" differences.

Like, in this world, Americans would play golf, end the year with "Auld Lang Syne", mark funerals with bagpipes, and name a restaurant "McDonald's".

Okay, bad examples. But there'd also be differences, like Spandex kilts and Haggis McNuggets.

I'll leave.
__________________
T Bone
GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com

Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated)

(Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.)
tbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 12:50 PM   #9
Daigoro
 
Daigoro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
Default Re: Scottish America

If you're positing alternative history, is there any reason not to posit alternative geography as well? Just locate another set of gold deposits in the Atlantic seaboard.

And don't forget the Templars! Maybe Scottish Templar descendants started looking for the remains of the missing Atlantic treasure fleet and ended up colonising New England instead.
__________________
Collaborative Settings:
Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation
Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse
And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!
Daigoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2018, 01:39 PM   #10
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Scottish America

There was plenty of gold in the East Coast, it just was not found until the late-18th century (Reed Gold Mine is the principle example, but there are others). You also have massive gem deposits thoughout the East Coast, so there is no particular reason why a trade oriented Scotland, rather than a conquest oriented England, could not have stumbled across such deposits earlier than in our timeline. Though I think that the Scottish would have probably been focused on the Caribbean trade during the first few decades, as they would have made a mint off of the trade in cotton (as well as chocolate, gold, peppers, silver, and tobacco).
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.