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Old 05-08-2014, 04:23 AM   #1
Anders
 
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Default Monster design

(Kromm, if you're listening, this would probably make a good supplement. And if you do not listen, then TO HELL WITH YOU!)

What are the principles of monster design in GURPS? How do I make them lethal enough to challenge the PCs, yet not so lethal that they overwhelm the PCs? How do I make them durable, yet not so durable that the fights become boring? What interesting traits are suited for monsters?

A lot will depend on the power level of the campaign, of course, so I think we should really focus principles rather than on hard-and-fast stat blocks.

Edited to remove the TVTropes reference.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:36 AM   #2
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Default Re: Monster design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
(Kromm, if you're listening, this would probably make a good supplement. And if you do not listen, then TO HELL WITH YOU!)

What are the principles of monster design in GURPS? How do I make them lethal enough to challenge the PCs, yet not so lethal that they overwhelm the PCs? How do I make them durable, yet not so durable that the fights become boring? What interesting traits are suited for monsters.

Study this page, as an inspiration not as a strait jacket and then we can have discussion.

A lot will depend on the power level of the campaign, of course, so I think we should really focus principles rather than on hard-and-fast stat blocks.
In other words, if we read the TVTropes article then we're good enough to talk with you?

Forget that, I have better things to do with my time than translate fictional archetypes to gaming ones.

Creating monsters at that perfect level requires a personal touch. It can't be done with a formula. And as far as I've seen, it requires a GM who can lie through his *ss and fix things on the fly when they've gone wrong.

Good night.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Monster design

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
In other words, if we read the TVTropes article then we're good enough to talk with you?

Forget that, I have better things to do with my time than translate fictional archetypes to gaming ones.

Creating monsters at that perfect level requires a personal touch. It can't be done with a formula. And as far as I've seen, it requires a GM who can lie through his *ss and fix things on the fly when they've gone wrong.

Good night.
I think that the archetypes are archetypes because they're useful in many contexts. And, like I said, as an inspiration. But if you don't think this is the thread for you then I guess that's that.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: Monster design

AFAICS, the problem with the model presented in the TV tropes page is that it's centred around a gamist, combat centred style suited for "that other RPG" or some online MMORPG.

A "monster design system" based on identifying and challenging "character archetypes" would be a great tool for an MMORPG developer, useful for "that other RPG" and probably even pass muster for DF, but whether it would work as core GURPS or not is another matter.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Monster design

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
(Kromm, if you're listening, this would probably make a good supplement. And if you do not listen, then TO HELL WITH YOU!)

What are the principles of monster design in GURPS? How do I make them lethal enough to challenge the PCs, yet not so lethal that they overwhelm the PCs? How do I make them durable, yet not so durable that the fights become boring? What interesting traits are suited for monsters.

Study this page, as an inspiration not as a strait jacket and then we can have discussion.

A lot will depend on the power level of the campaign, of course, so I think we should really focus principles rather than on hard-and-fast stat blocks.
I would say that competitive balance does not apply to GURPS (or any true rpg), as it's not a competitive game. The players are not in competition with each other, and they're not in competition with the GM (though their characters may be competing with NPCs, monsters, or even each other).

There's great advice in DF 2: 27-28 on monster design. I highly suggest you start there.

My main advice would be, based on your post: don't worry about making them "durable." PCs have to worry about this, because once your PC dies, you've lost your character. As a GM, you never run out of characters. Your lovingly created monster gets iced in round 1? Well, as it turns out its family heard its death scream and are fast approaching. The bandit lord critically fails his attack and stabs himself in the foot? Let the PCs mop up the rest of the bandits and give the next bad guy Luck or a few unspent CP to use for Buying Success (B347).
As far as making them sufficiently lethal, that really depends on the type of game. If you're okay with PCs dying, make them as lethal as you want. If you would prefer for PCs to survive, make them dangerous (dealing enough damage to penetrate DR but not by very much) so that PCs feel like there's always a chance of taking damage without having one hit ever big enough to kill.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: Monster design

Not sure I like the combative tone of Anders's first post. Lack of smileys makes me wonder, too.


But anyway....

Adversary design (not necessarily "monster"; some of the best opponents aren't even necessarily "evil", much less classifying as a "monster") should vary by both genre and capabilities of the PCs. Ignore point totals altogether; a 150 point civil servant can stymie a group of 2000 point PCs with a phone call or a PR campaign, and a 500 point dragon is more than enough for a group of 250 point PCs.

In an Old West campaign, your adversaries are more likely to be Indians, rival ranchers, and quite possibly the law than they are 50 foot tall steampunk tarantulas.

In a Space Opera campaign, your adversaries may be Faceless Hordes (e.g. Imperial Stormtrooper), a rival faction operating either openly or from the shadows, or (taken to an extreme) the Babylon 5 Shadow type. While mooks are expected, the final showdown is usually against the Big Bad directly.

Fantasy types are more likely to use the "monster", whether it's Sword-and-Sandal (the Hercules movies shown at drive-ins during the 50s and 60s), Urban Fantasy (e.g. Monster Hunters), or some other flavor. In many literary cases, the big monster is taken out quickly once discovered, but even then only after 200+ pages of a cat-and-mouse game to discover and then find the guy, with the guy often being two steps ahead of the heroes.

Remember that as GM it's not your goal to kill the PCs, merely challenge them. The challenges may be potentially lethal, but you should never approach the situation thinking, "if I don't kill at least one PC, I'm not doing my job."

What can be frustrating is when your bad guy escapes and the PCs decide to hunt down that bad guy relentlessly for three or more sessions rather than letting him get away to attack them another day.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Monster design

The "combative tone" was due to a failed Writing check.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: Monster design

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Creating monsters at that perfect level requires a personal touch. It can't be done with a formula. And as far as I've seen, it requires a GM who can lie through his *ss and fix things on the fly when they've gone wrong.
I baptized myself in an orgy of numbers a few years ago trying to come up with a good answer to this. Those results are still around but the takeaways were these

1. Formula wont get you great level of Precision, but it can get you in the ballpark. No human is completely predictable, almost all spells and advantages are subject to SOME interpretation and the variance in the dice will get you, especially in boss fights. It doesnt mean that pencil to paper isnt worth doing, it most definitely is, especially with a new GM or a GM new to a group. It means be prepared to work with an 'Envelope' of values as opposed to a specific 'Challenge Rating' type metric.

2. There will never in GURPS be a mathematical substitute for knowing your party. Exclamation Point. No chart, no graph, no table no variable. Because sometimes the Players will do things you never expected and have different interpretations of whats going on than you ever intended. Thats it. You MUST know your party. Know what their favorite tactics/spells/ads and All are. Sometimes you will let them play to those strengths because they paid points for them and want to play them. Somtimes you will subvert, dodge or even exploit their tactics. This is not done from cruelty, but in the intrest of challenge and growth.

3. It is my personal advice that you do not 'lie' to your players nor should you fudge dice rolls. Im not sure what 'fix things on the fly' means. RPGs never go wrong. Its a nonsensical concept. Yes its true they can go wide of the plot, chars can die and threads get burnt, but wrong? Death of chars can be one of those great moments in gaming. Plot threads that get forsaken/abandoned/misconstrued aren't lost as much as they are recyclable or reimagined.

GURPS is balanceable, but only to a certain extent, only with a GM that knows not only the rules but their party and only with careful considersation. Turhan's Bey Company actually had a simple metric used in one of his DF adventures that experimented with this concept.

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Old 05-08-2014, 09:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: Monster design

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
RPGs never go wrong. Its a nonsensical concept.
I find that comment and what follows to be very enlightening. I made me rethink the game, thanks!

Tim
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:41 AM   #10
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Default Re: Monster design

I've done tons of monsters since I started GURPS. Here's my tips based on what people have liked and what people have disliked, and me answering questions.

Balanced stats for "Challenging" depends largely on your characters, not the point range of the campaign. Some things to look out for are:

A. Save or Die

This really sucks for GURPS a lot. There's been endless people who have groaned when they open combat with a crit fail on defense against an incredible attack that just leaves them out of the fight...

B. Cardboard Cutouts

People tend to get bored with combat encounters that just are there to be there. It's nice that people can have random encounters or dungeons full of monsters, but who stops to go "I'M HAVING SO MUCH FUN!" after the Nth random encounter in final fantasy? After awhile you just try to get through them as fast as possible to move the story along.

C. Stifling Players

Balance to GMs tends to mean "Difficult" and when people have an ability, the first thought is to counter it! If abilities end up countered though, what was the point of putting character points into it?

Players actually have more fun with cannon fodder they can FLEX their abilities with. Then they pat themselves on the back for points well spent "Wow, thank goodness I took THAT ability! It made this fight a breeze!"




Now, some numbers and concepts.

A. If you want something to die, don't give it high HT. That's the #1 way of drawing battle out into near infinite proportions! 15 HT on an enemy pretty much means it's going to be fighting down to it's last HP if it's not unlucky. I've seen 12 become a bit much in many fights...

B. Don't have high damage, have high successful hits. Players will get nervous with even 1 HP of damage if done right. That's the opposite of save or die, it's save or get a set back.

C. Keep the PCs guessing what will happen! I had an Oni appear in a battle that had a living aura of darkness that did all sorts of fun things as long as the Oni made a successful will roll. The players had a lot of fun in that fight. And it wasn't something expected. It made them have to work together and pull out strategies instead of just straight attacking.

D. Use status effects that don't take away a PC's control. Lower their ST, DX, IQ, HT, etc.


Now, some tips:

A. Use the Evironment

Have your encounters use the environment more than their own abilities. One of my favorite fights I was ever in had this giant kraken-like monster that was just trying to eat EVERYONE. Our enemies and us. It was a blast because we're getting out of the way of this creature while facing down our enemies, and it has a 2 hex radius pounding!

Another fun one was where barrages of attacks were lighting up a junk heap and having garbage and debris falling all over while we were fighting. The enemy was trying to exploit that fact in their choices round to round, getting in locations they thought were safe while we try to evade outside forces.

Environments are largely under played in a lot of campaigns. You end up with nice hallways, rooms, or open fields to fight on. Spend a little time making things more than a simple kitchen.


B. Exploit Disadvantages

A fun encounter I ran for players was based on the fact everyone had pacifist - Cannot Harm Innocents. A vastly weaker character took an innocent NPC that the party was trying to help at knife point with a wait maneuver to the throat. It was interesting to see the PCs worry about risking the NPC.

People got points for that stuff so it SHOULD be a set back at some point.


C. Change the Goal!

Sometimes just changing the the goal of the fight from being stronger than the enemy to achieving some goal can make things much more fun! The death star is about to explode. You can sit around fighting these tie fighters, or you can try to make your way out of the thing before it kills you all!

Maybe the PCs have to take the thing they're fighting without hurting it! That certainly makes choices much different.

How about a wizard that enslaved something powerful to fight which you can't win against, (Or would you may not want to because it's a good thing that's caught up in a bad situation). So the fight becomes keeping that thing out of reach while you deal with the REAL foe who isn't so powerful.

D. Keep in mind your encounter creatures have motives

(Mindless things not withstanding)

Every fight is a chance at RP instead of hack & slash. My player group loves to do things like a marvel comic and speak to the enemy while they're battling it out, and sometimes they successfully cause them to retreat, surrender, or just go berserk.

RP becomes more fun when you are immersed in it, so immerse people into what they're doing. Really ask yourself "Why are these two forces fighting?" and up-play that instead of the stats of what they're fighting.


E. Have them work together

PCs work together and exploit that fact, and sometimes a unit of enemies have trained together so much they can use strategies that make the PCs wish they worked together more. Powers and a pyramid article even outline technique, advantages, and skills a group can use to get upper hands in a fight by working together specifically! It's something that can be used to show PCs the power of one another instead of their own stats.




To summarize, try not to think too hard about "Challenging" the players, because it's hard to make anything statwise that is a rewarding challenge. People tend to feel more rewarded when their characters get to be their characters or sometimes question themselves:

- An avid monster hunter that finds out some monsters aren't what they seem
- A master swordsman who finds out battles are bloody business a "Paladin" who has to balance living by the sword and falling into evil
- a bard who finds that their music can unite unlikely people.

These are the enjoyable parts of GURPS, where you can look at a monster and not just see bonus experience points, but something that you can really engage and it will engage you back!

Last edited by GodBeastX; 05-08-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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