What TL is the original Star Trek?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by maximara

Star Trek cannot be TL (7+3)^ because a TL6 culture can duplicate the technology in a few decades from just one component per Worlds of the Federation.

Sadly, only the TV shows and films can be accepted as "canon." Scriptwriters seem to delight in ignoring information in the books, even the better reference books, perhaps because Paramount would have to pay extra royalties if they drew on them too heavily.

The exceptions are that they might lift a single concept from a reference book (like some of the peripheral information about Andorians in Enterprise) or a smarta** set designer might slip a diagram of a starship or an alien from one of the books into a computer display (e.g., some of the biological diagrams from Worlds of the Federation which appear in Keiko O'Brien's classroom in DS9).

Certainly, Star Trek is "mixed tech" heavily influenced by "forgettium" - potentially universe-shaping discoveries or technologies which are abandoned the episode after they're discovered.

Additionally, Star Trek happens in a universe which diverges from our own billions of years before the present, with the really big changes in human history occurring by the 1950 and 60s (much greater advances in eugenics/genetics and space flight). By the 1980s, you have an entirely different tech structure, in part due to meddling by time travelers from the future.

Very broadly, I'd suggest:

Late 20th c. to early 21st c. - late TL8 - early TL9 (slow interstellar STL travel, extensive exploration of solar system, extensive genetic engineering, highly powerful computers based on 29th c. tech. Probably fusion power. Mature cryogenic preservation technology.)

Mid 21st c. (WW III) - Regressed to TL5-7 in much of the world, but less so Western Europe and the USA, which still retain much TL9 tech. Prior to WW III, limited mature STL "generation ship" or "sleeper" interstellar ship technology sufficient to allow multiple human colonists, usually with truly embarrassing notions about their traditional ethnic cultures, to fly off into the void.

Late 21st c. (Post WW III to "Warp I" era in 2163) - Early TL10 and some TL10^ (mature STL drives and space travel tech, experimental FTL drives, experimental FTL communication, antimatter power conversion, many forms of super medicine). Fully developed, but illegal, human genetic engineering (as made clear in Enterprise 4th season).

It's also made clear that super medicine can cure many ailments caused by radiation poisoning. It is probably legal to do limited, therapeutic genetic engineering, like to cure cancer, or to fix "simple" genetic or epigenetic medical problems - like spina bifida or allergies - in utero or in childhood.

Early 22nd c. (2100-2151 Enterprise era) - Mature TL10 with elements of TL12^ science fantasy, but "safetech" for sapient AI, nanotech, uplift, and "post-human" technologies such as visible cybernetics. (Mature FTL drive, primitive force shields, matter transmitters, universal translators and "blaster" hand weapons. Limited fast cloning.)

Mid-Late 23rd c. (2250-2290 Discovery, TOS, and TOS Movie era) - TL11 with elements of TL13^ science fantasy. As above, but more mature tech. Experimental paradimensional and time travel tech. Experimental mind-emulation, mind control, and hologram technology. Experimental sapient robots and AI computers. Instant healing for many ailments. Limited or experimental cybernetic enhancements (e.g., Dr. Miranda Jones' sensor web).

Late 24th c. (2365-2385 TNG, DS9, Voyager, TNG Movies) - TL12 with elements of TL14^. Mature holographic VR technology, fast FTL drive, mature matter conversion/replicator tech, better understood dimensional and time travel (limited only by Federation regulations regarding the Temporal Prime Directive and the Mirror Universe). Mature nanotech (If a smart teenager can create self-aware nanoswarms in a standard engineering lab, and the response from all the experienced scientists on the ship is, "Bad Wesley, now you have to clean up the mess!" vs. "OMG, Nobel Prize for you!" you can bet it's mature tech!) Fully-developed cybernetics (limited only by Federation distaste for obvious cyber-mods. E.g., Nog's artificial leg, Geordi's VISOR, and Seven's artificial eye). Experimental fast cloning tech.

By the last quarter of the 24th century, at least in the timeline where USS Voyager returns from the Delta Quadrant loaded with early 25th c., limited 29th c., and advanced Borg technology, there could potentially be another leap forward in tech.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Not exactly. "A retrotech setting is best defined as TL6 or TL7 plus whatever elements of emergent superscience the GM wishes to add. [...] For a less retro feel, adding a limited set of nonsuperscience TL8-9 technologies – usually beam weapons, space drives, and energy or power supplies – will cover most space-opera scenarios."

TOS computers (or at least the terminals that tie into the main ship's computer) are bulky things with lots of flashing lights and control panels have manual switches; .

But they are not TL 7 computers. They can intelligently parse language answering questions and translating between languages, they can detect lies with near total accuracy, they can store the entire history of the planet Earth in a box the size of a cassette player, they can store information in small devices similar to thumb drives and tablets, and they know whether or not a person standing in front of a door intends to go through it. And while they don't look like TL 8 computers...they don't look like TL 7 or 6 computers either. No reel to reel tape, no punch cards, not even keyboards, and yes computers had keyboards in 1962. I don't believe that Star Trek can be defined as TL 7 just based on "they used manual switches"

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Sadly, only the TV shows and films can be accepted as "canon."

Even there Star Trek is a continuity disaster.

As for the Canon, "Piece of the Action" does give us definitive details about the Iotians:

1) they were given "text books on how to make radio sets and stuff like that" when they were at the "beginnings of industrialisation" (early TL5) a century ago. They are at 1920s ie TL6 when Kirk meets them and to get there they had help.
2) the Iotians could easily take McCoy's communicator apart without destroying it; this is -15 to skill for TL9 and impossible for TL10 or higher. In "Patterns of Force" another TL6 possibly TL7 culture is able to disassemble communicators without destroying the components as Spock is able to use the parts to make a functional communicator.
3) It is stated that the Iotians can learn how the transtator works; this is -15 to skill for TL9 and impossible for TL10 or higher.
4) It is stated that the transtator is the basis for every important piece of equipment that the Federation has.
5) Kirk comments that "in a few years, the Iotians may demand a piece of our action." This would also be -15 to skill for TL9 and impossible for TL10 or higher.

This all points to TOS tech being more TL6^ perhaps TL7^ then actual TL9 and it is all canon.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Certainly, Star Trek is "mixed tech" heavily influenced by "forgettium" - potentially universe-shaping discoveries or technologies which are abandoned the episode after they're discovered.

Additionally, Star Trek happens in a universe which diverges from our own billions of years before the present, with the really big changes in human history occurring by the 1950 and 60s (much greater advances in eugenics/genetics and space flight). By the 1980s, you have an entirely different tech structure, in part due to meddling by time travelers from the future.

Between the "forgettium" and the time travel things go south real fast.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Very broadly, I'd suggest:

Late 20th c. to early 21st c. - late TL8 - early TL9 (slow interstellar STL travel, extensive exploration of solar system, extensive genetic engineering, highly powerful computers based on 29th c. tech. Probably fusion power. Mature cryogenic preservation technology.)

Interestellar travel available ("Where No Man Has Gone Before")

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Mid 21st c. (WW III) - Regressed to TL5-7 in much of the world, but less so Western Europe and the USA, which still retain much TL9 tech. Prior to WW III, limited mature STL "generation ship" or "sleeper" interstellar ship technology sufficient to allow multiple human colonists, usually with truly embarrassing notions about their traditional ethnic cultures, to fly off into the void.

In TOS WWIII was in the 1990s and is also known as the Eugenics War ("Space Seed")

Spock: "The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War"

This was reconned in First Contact to the 2070s and retconned again in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" to the 22nd century. And yes that really screws up the timeline.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Late 21st c. (Post WW III to "Warp I" era in 2163) - Early TL10 and some TL10^ (mature STL drives and space travel tech, experimental FTL drives, experimental FTL communication, antimatter power conversion, many forms of super medicine). Fully developed, but illegal, human genetic engineering (as made clear in Enterprise 4th season).

It's also made clear that super medicine can cure many ailments caused by radiation poisoning. It is probably legal to do limited, therapeutic genetic engineering, like to cure cancer, or to fix "simple" genetic or epigenetic medical problems - like spina bifida or allergies - in utero or in childhood.

It was far more recent then that. Per "The Cage" Warp drive was developed only a generation (ie 20 years) ago. Genetic Engineering did not exist in the TOS era as Khan and his group were bred. The engineering was a retcon via The Wrath of Khan. I should mention that things are even more of a cluster-fubar with Star Trek Into Darkness as in that reality Khan is was in suspended animation for three hundred years rather then the two hundred he was in "Space Seed".

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Early 22nd c. (2100-2151 Enterprise era) - Mature TL10 with elements of TL12^ science fantasy, but "safetech" for sapient AI, nanotech, uplift, and "post-human" technologies such as visible cybernetics. (Mature FTL drive, primitive force shields, matter transmitters, universal translators and "blaster" hand weapons. Limited fast cloning.)

Cloning did not exist for the Federation in the TOS era.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Mid-Late 23rd c. (2250-2290 Discovery, TOS, and TOS Movie era) - TL11 with elements of TL13^ science fantasy. As above, but more mature tech. Experimental paradimensional and time travel tech. Experimental mind-emulation, mind control, and hologram technology. Experimental sapient robots and AI computers. Instant healing for many ailments. Limited or experimental cybernetic enhancements (e.g., Dr. Miranda Jones' sensor web).

These three as such a continuity cluster-Fubar that they can't be in the same reality barring time travel changing things.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't believe that Star Trek can be defined as TL 7 just based on "they used manual switches"

That's not at all what I'm looking at. I'm primarily looking at "they have one big computer per starship with a few terminals." We don't see every Starfleet officer carrying around a computer in their pocket, or using it to access the ship's intranet.

And the point there is not to define the sum "7+x" but to argue for the "7." At least for me. Obviously their computer is capable of doing things real TL7 computers couldn't do. On the other hand, I don't think they were five whole TLs ahead!

[dataweaver]

The advantage to concentrating on TOS to the exclusion of the rest is that you don't need to concern yourself with the TNG franchise or STD; you can just take TOS on its own terms. And the only time travel you need to worry about is City on the Edge of Forever (1930s), Assignment Earth (1960s), and Tomorrow is Yesterday (also 1960s).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The advantage to concentrating on TOS to the exclusion of the rest is that you don't need to concern yourself with the TNG franchise or STD; you can just take TOS on its own terms. And the only time travel you need to worry about is City on the Edge of Forever (1930s), Assignment Earth (1960s), and Tomorrow is Yesterday (also 1960s).

And the first of those is not relevant to the TL, as it's the result not of the Federation's technology but of a mysterious alien artifact.

[Stormcrow]

Given that slingshot time travel was discovered by the Enterprise crew and only used a couple of times, I'd say it's fair to say that it's not part of the setting's overall technology level. Nobody's building a fleet of time travel ships; they're just using starships to try out the technique.

[dataweaver]

I was thinking more along the lines of what we know about Star Trek's history where TOS is concerned; but yeah; time travel is very much an “experimental only” technology in TOS, in the same realm as stable SAIs and brain transplants.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

TOS computer technology is a little off but I chalk it up to the computing power required to balance the warp field, navigate and generate firing solutions for weapons moving at and firing at targets moving may times faster than light.

tbh, I'd say that Star Trek characters (in every series) refer to "the computer" in the same way that modern techies would refer to "the Internet" or "the cloud". In practical terms, it's really a large collection of closely networked computers rather than a single computer. There have been plenty of scenes in which crew in one part of the ship have done stuff on the computer and it wasn't readily apparent to crew elsewhere.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

There have been plenty of scenes in which crew in one part of the ship have done stuff on the computer and it wasn't readily apparent to crew elsewhere.

Nah, that's just run-of-the-mill mainframe computing.