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Old 08-16-2013, 07:15 AM   #21
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Part of the reason may be typical mission duration. If CQB-focused and trained for hostage rescue, all missions are expected a few hours, so resupply is less important, compared to Special Forces in particular whose primary mission (or original mission, anyway) was to operate behind enemy lines, training guerillas for months at a time.
More or less. It is the combination of supply line length and the availability of support. Domestic counter-terrorism generally eases both of those issues, while typical special operations missions make both more problematic. The instances in which ammunition compatibility is not an issue are much less common than those where it is.
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Speaking as a guy who is sitting in a Special Forces DSP in Afghanistan as I type this- the local green Berets and SEALs are tooling around in MATVs mounting .50 caliber machine guns and Mark 19 AGLs in CROW remote-weapon mounts. There is nothing "man portable" about that...

The 18Bs are weapon specialists, and there is an old saying- "To be a good special operations soldier you first have to be a good soldier." Trust me- those guys know how to operate an HMG and a mortar.

Also- it is worth remembering that the SEALs in GURPS Seals in Vietnam were not a very mature force. The SEALS nowadays are trained somewhat differently.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:14 AM   #23
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Speaking as a guy who is sitting in a Special Forces DSP in Afghanistan as I type this- the local green Berets and SEALs are tooling around in MATVs mounting .50 caliber machine guns and Mark 19 AGLs in CROW remote-weapon mounts. There is nothing "man portable" about that...
Sure, and I can understand a point in Gunner if the unit in question has need for it (SEALs generally do not, Special Forces probably do).

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The 18Bs are weapon specialists, and there is an old saying- "To be a good special operations soldier you first have to be a good soldier." Trust me- those guys know how to operate an HMG and a mortar.
The OP is working a pretty general template, SF MOS's are designed to great depth around a specific kind of mission. An 18B would have a variety of Guns, Gunner, and Armoury skills not found in the rest of the unit, but I do not think he was describing an 18B anywhere in here - he is describing a guy who carries an LMG.

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Also- it is worth remembering that the SEALs in GURPS Seals in Vietnam were not a very mature force. The SEALS nowadays are trained somewhat differently.
Absolutely, all the units evolve their training. This is part of why I am so eager to see the not-gonna-happen GURPS Modern Military or Special Ops 4E.
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Absolutely, all the units evolve their training. This is part of why I am so eager to see the not-gonna-happen GURPS Modern Military or Special Ops 4E.
We already have 3 editions of GURPS Special Ops. My vote is, very strongly, for a broader and more generically useful supplement, along the lines of GURPS Modern Military.

There are a couple of supplements on modern militaries for the 1st Edition Spycraft RPG, but while they're useful, there's a lot of stuff they don't talk about, often because it flat out doesn't fit into the rigidly class-levels-and-feats -based structure of a d20 RPG.
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:27 AM   #25
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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We already have 3 editions of GURPS Special Ops. My vote is, very strongly, for a broader and more generically useful supplement, along the lines of GURPS Modern Military.
The only 4E Special Ops we have is SEALs in Vietnam, a narrow, disputed*, and antiquated look at one specific Special Ops group.

That having been said, I think a Modern Military book would solve a lot more problems and could probably include enough Special Ops templates to make filling out the rest pretty easy.

*: Or so I hear!
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:46 AM   #26
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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The only 4E Special Ops we have is SEALs in Vietnam, a narrow, disputed*, and antiquated look at one specific Special Ops group.

*: Or so I hear!
What's disputed about it?

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Old 08-26-2013, 02:14 AM   #27
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What's disputed about it?

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Honestly do not remember - I just remember that when I have referenced it that there have always seemed to be people calling the templates unreasonable or unrealistic. I am not saying I agree with this.
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:05 AM   #28
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Honestly do not remember - I just remember that when I have referenced it that there have always seemed to be people calling the templates unreasonable or unrealistic. I am not saying I agree with this.
No, I think that the templates are quite realistic. It's just that they are also dated- they aren't very accurate for modern SEALs.

Speaking of which- I am quite sure that SEALs get heavy-weapons training. Again, every day I see them tooling around in MRAPs with erotically large weaponry mounted to the roof...
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:59 AM   #29
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No, I think that the templates are quite realistic. It's just that they are also dated- they aren't very accurate for modern SEALs.
And I agree, but there are many opinions on this forum and I remember many of them being broadly critical of SIV.

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Speaking of which- I am quite sure that SEALs get heavy-weapons training. Again, every day I see them tooling around in MRAPs with erotically large weaponry mounted to the roof...
I am sure they do... but it is a tertiary skill at best, something that in GURPS probably lies in that uncomfortable Dabbler area. For the average SEAL, an M2HB is an emergency weapon, not something you ever plan to use on a mission.

Of course, there are no doubt platoons that go through additional training which DOES include some real heavy weapons training, but I have not seen anything to suggest run-of-the-mill SEALs get more than "This is how you shoot it, this is how you load it, here are the two most common jams... now fire a belt downrange, see how it feels. Good? OK, next guy!"
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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And I agree, but there are many opinions on this forum and I remember many of them being broadly critical of SIV.
As the author of the thing, I'm naturally interested in any legitimate criticism, but I can't remember any of the "many broadly critical" opinions. Considering the amount of research I invested in the book and the playtesting, editing, and general vetting that went into it, I'm fairly sure there's nothing substantially wrong with the contents.

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I am sure they do... but it is a tertiary skill at best, something that in GURPS probably lies in that uncomfortable Dabbler area. For the average SEAL, an M2HB is an emergency weapon, not something you ever plan to use on a mission.

Of course, there are no doubt platoons that go through additional training which DOES include some real heavy weapons training, but I have not seen anything to suggest run-of-the-mill SEALs get more than "This is how you shoot it, this is how you load it, here are the two most common jams... now fire a belt downrange, see how it feels. Good? OK, next guy!"
Well, there's lots and lots and lots of photos of SEALs riding DPVs, HMMWVs, MRAPs and various other ground vehicles for the past 25 years, which universally sport M2HB machine guns and similar ordnance. It's a safe bet that they know how to use them . . .

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