GURPS pitch to d20 players

[DemiBenson]

I’m writing a pitch to my current group of d20 players. Most have never played GURPS (with one notable exception). I’m trying to get them excited to try a new system, so I’m trying to write the best points of the GURPS vs d20 debate.

What am I missing?
- - -

My preferred system is GURPS, and I want to run Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game.
Here are some of the reasons why I like GURPS

• It’s difficult to min-max a character, which takes the pressure off making PCs - you get to make an interesting character if you want, instead of being forced to make one that fits a tactical niche
• Why is it difficult? Because point costs are well-balanced, so any area you max, mins some other important area
• You can truly make whatever kind of character you want. No classes, no alignment, no weird class restrictions, nothing to pigeon-hole your character. Want to make a fighter who does magic, but also knows loads of skills? You can do that, and it won’t affect your future growth at all
• Much simpler system than d20, as there are only two kinds of rolls - skill rolls, and damage rolls.
• Books are much cheaper than any d20 system, and you only need one to play
• GURPS Lite is free and includes everything you need to learn the system
• Character creation utilities are free

- - -
After editing:

My preferred system is GURPS, and I want to run Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game.
Here are some of the reasons why I like GURPS

• You can truly make whatever kind of character you want. No classes, no alignment, no weird class restrictions, nothing to pigeon-hole your character. Want to make a fighter who does magic, but also knows loads of skills? You can do that, and it won’t affect your future growth at all
• It’s difficult to min-max a character, which takes the pressure off making PCs - you get to make an interesting character if you want, instead of being forced to make one that fits a tactical niche
• Why is it difficult? Because point costs are well-balanced, so any area you max, mins some other important area. So don’t worry about min-maxing, and make the character you want
• Immersion - when you get hit, you have to make a defense and your skills matter, and when it hits, it hits a specific body part, instead of some nebulous “Armor Class”
• Realistic economics, magic systems built for verisimilitude from the ground up
• Much simpler system than d20, as there are only two kinds of rolls - skill rolls, and damage rolls.
• Books are much cheaper than any d20 system, and you only need one to play
• GURPS Lite is free and includes everything you need to learn the system
• Character creation utilities are free

[ericthered]

You missed the immersive quality:



When you get hit by an attack, it feels like your character got hit by an attack. Instead of having a vague Armor Class, you know whether you blocked the attack, dodged it, or just had good enough armor.


When you go shopping for weapons, the prices hang together.



Also, it does things other than fantasy, and does them well.


I think you misstep by emphasizing the min-max as the first thing. You can min-max in gurps, its just harder. Its also the sort of thing that a GM cares more about than players (unless you know your players will really like that bullet). The classic selling point is flexibility: you can play anything (the third bullet)

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by ericthered

You missed the immersive quality:

When you get hit by an attack, it feels like your character got hit by an attack. Instead of having a vague Armor Class, you know whether you blocked the attack, dodged it, or just had good enough armor.

When you go shopping for weapons, the prices hang together.

Also, it does things other than fantasy, and does them well.

I think you misstep by emphasizing the min-max as the first thing. You can min-max in gurps, its just harder. Its also the sort of thing that a GM cares more about than players (unless you know your players will really like that bullet). The classic selling point is flexibility: you can play anything (the third bullet)

Good points! Thanks!
The group I’m in are all pretty good about immersion already, but it can’t hurt to add it in.

I put min-maxing first because it’s one of the biggest annoyances I have with modern d20. But you make a great point that it’s not GURPS’ biggest selling point.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

I’m writing a pitch to my current group of d20 players. Most have never played GURPS (with one notable exception). I’m trying to get them excited to try a new system, so I’m trying to write the best points of the GURPS vs d20 debate.

What am I missing?

- - -
After editing:

My preferred system is GURPS, and I want to run Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game.
Here are some of the reasons why I like GURPS

• You can truly make whatever kind of character you want. No classes, no alignment, no weird class restrictions, nothing to pigeon-hole your character. Want to make a fighter who does magic, but also knows loads of skills? You can do that, and it won’t affect your future growth at all
• It’s difficult to min-max a character, which takes the pressure off making PCs - you get to make an interesting character if you want, instead of being forced to make one that fits a tactical niche
• Why is it difficult? Because point costs are well-balanced, so any area you max, mins some other important area. So don’t worry about min-maxing, and make the character you want
• Immersion - when you get hit, you have to make a defense and your skills matter, and when it hits, it hits a specific body part, instead of some nebulous “Armor Class”
• Realistic economics, magic systems built for verisimilitude from the ground up
• Much simpler system than d20, as there are only two kinds of rolls - skill rolls, and damage rolls.
• Books are much cheaper than any d20 system, and you only need one to play
• GURPS Lite is free and includes everything you need to learn the system
• Character creation utilities are free

Given that you're starting with the DFRPG, your first bullet is going to be counteracted by the templates in Adventurers - DFRPG assumes you'll start with that. Ditto realistic economics; DFRPG tweaks it for dungeon delving. The magic system in DFRPG might also raise some eyebrows.

If I may, here are the points I would bring up, in order:

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG is a gateway to GURPS. I want to play it instead of D&D because...

• It feels more realistic - the combat, the skills, economy, and even the magic are based on a carefully designed system that reflects how reality works. That's more immersive to me than rolling against AC or memorizing new spells every day.
• It's simpler at its core: if you can roll 3d6 under your skill number, you can play. (roll high for damage and reaction rolls. Done!)
• It's front-loaded: you do most of the math before play starts. Once you're in game, it's all play.
• Character creation is much more flexible! DFRPG offers "templates" for character types, and even with them you have so much more choice than with classes and levels. And if you feel adventurous, you can discard the template and just build the character you want!
• The game itself is also far more flexible than D&D: with an enormous pool of supplements and design to pull from, the GM can find rules support for almost anything. Are we bored with dungeons? The GM can start up a Buffy-like game with Monster Hunters, or Ocean's 11 with Action - no system switching required.
• It can be as light or as heavy as we want: we can play it with a bare minimum of traits and dice rolls, or we can lean into the crunch with complex magic systems, real-world-based economics, and extremely detailed close combat. Or find a happy medium!

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ericthered

You missed the immersive quality:

When you get hit by an attack, it feels like your character got hit by an attack. Instead of having a vague Armor Class, you know whether you blocked the attack, dodged it, or just had good enough armor.

This is my #1 reason for liking GURPS. I play D&D and enjoy it a lot, but to do so I have to avoid thinking about what my Armor Class or huge pile of hit points mean. With GURPS I don't have to do that.

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Given that you're starting with the DFRPG, your first bullet is going to be counteracted by the templates in Adventurers - DFRPG assumes you'll start with that. Ditto realistic economics; DFRPG tweaks it for dungeon delving. The magic system in DFRPG might also raise some eyebrows.

If I may, here are the points I would bring up, in order:

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG is a gateway to GURPS. I want to play it instead of D&D because...

• It feels more realistic - the combat, the skills, economy, and even the magic are based on a carefully designed system that reflects how reality works. That's more immersive to me than rolling against AC or memorizing new spells every day.
• It's simpler at its core: if you can roll 3d6 under your skill number, you can play. (roll high for damage and reaction rolls. Done!)
• It's front-loaded: you do most of the math before play starts. Once you're in game, it's all play.
• Character creation is much more flexible! DFRPG offers "templates" for character types, and even with them you have so much more choice than with classes and levels. And if you feel adventurous, you can discard the template and just build the character you want!
• The game itself is also far more flexible than D&D: with an enormous pool of supplements and design to pull from, the GM can find rules support for almost anything. Are we bored with dungeons? The GM can start up a Buffy-like game with Monster Hunters, or Ocean's 11 with Action - no system switching required.
• It can be as light or as heavy as we want: we can play it with a bare minimum of traits and dice rolls, or we can lean into the crunch with complex magic systems, real-world-based economics, and extremely detailed close combat. Or find a happy medium!

This is an excellent pitch for GURPS. I would caution though that the front-loading is a mixed blessing: some new GURPS players find character creation daunting, even with templates, and I would make sure you have pregens available (without making them mandatory) for the sake of players who feel that way.

I would not mention min-maxing at all. While the most abusive stuff is non-obvious, I'd argue the same is true of the most abusive stuff in D&D. And at a more basic level, it's easy for new players to wind up building characters who aren't nearly as effective as they hoped—say trying to build a Martial Artist to be a kicking machine who can go toe to toe with a Knight, rather than focusing on subtler aspects of Chi skills and abilities.

[khorboth]

I feel you're missing a big point: consistancy. Powers and abilities largely work in the same ways. This means you won't suddenly "level up" and have to learn a new kind of mechanic with new dice and an opponent won't have an ability from nowhere unless it's PLOT dictated. Likewise, we don't have the power-inflation problems that plague DnD where the latest book introduces some new overpowered mechanic that everyone needs.

[Shostak]

Don't forget the fact that, rather than waiting forever to level up at which time your character suddenly get a better in a whole bunch things, they can evolve steadily in small increments (if that's how you want to spend earned CP), and you can have them grow in ways that respond to your game rather than in predetermined ways baked into the system.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by khorboth

I feel you're missing a big point: consistancy. Powers and abilities largely work in the same ways. This means you won't suddenly "level up" and have to learn a new kind of mechanic with new dice and an opponent won't have an ability from nowhere unless it's PLOT dictated. Likewise, we don't have the power-inflation problems that plague DnD where the latest book introduces some new overpowered mechanic that everyone needs.

The consistency is also much better between the four editions of GURPS than the six editions of D&D (counting OD&D). You can take the few things that exist for GURPS 1e and with relatively minor tweaks used them in a 4e game.

The Classic Bestiaries are similarly easy to convert:

*ST10+: Fourth Edition ST = square root of (10 x Third Edition ST)
*Dodge: Ignore PD and add 3 to score
*HT: read as HT/HP with the HP figured off of ST.

Yet GURPS is insanely flexible - you can make tweeks within the system and not have things break. Don't like the "core" magic system? There is Ritual Magic or Rune Magic. Want to recreate a magic system from particular world? GURPS Thaumatology is there to help (See Slayers Magic for an example of this)

Combat is similarly modular - it can be as detailed or as simple as you want. There is even the Very Basic Melee Combat mechanic if you want to have something akin to D&D like combat.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

[*]Character creation utilities are free

Not the best one, IMO, GCA, but it's cheap at $15 with no further cost to support virtually every book published.

If you have players who like classes like the Battlemaster fighter, I would target them. I think GURPS has the finest tactical combat system I have ever seen in an RPG. Very few options for weapon combat are hidden by a "paywall" of feats or levels. If you have sufficient skill, you can choose between multiple attacks, hit location, deceptive attacks, or all at the same time. You can Feint, just defend, etc.

I've won over some D&D players that way. Players of non- and semi-casters have a lot to gain from DF.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

Much simpler system than d20, as there are only two kinds of rolls - skill rolls, and damage rolls.

There are also quick contests, which are less tightly tied to skills. For example, magic and psionic rolls use the Rule of 16 (by default).