01-18-2021, 10:56 AM | #41 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
Armor that is adequate to the attack being defended against does reduce hit probability, because the only way to get damage through is to go around the armor. It's not actually a terrible approximation if all you care about is attacks from swords/spears/bows/etc, but it breaks down at the point you're dealing with anything more exotic, because they may have attacks that are powerful enough to punch through even in protected areas.
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01-18-2021, 11:03 AM | #42 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Saskatoon, SK
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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01-18-2021, 11:13 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: FL
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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01-18-2021, 12:06 PM | #44 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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The bulette has a hard armored shell that is AC -2. If you can get to the soft underside, it's AC 6. But you have to know that, and you have to succeed in exposing it. Its eyes are AC 4, but you have to have the insight to strike them when it raises its crest. Its eyes aren't exposed until it does this. |
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01-18-2021, 12:06 PM | #45 | ||||
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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"He’s Got a Lot to Kick About" Dragon #53 (Sept 1981) for example is very primitive compared to either of the Martial Arts books but the fact it even existed shows how unhappy people with dreams of being Bruce Lee in a dungeon were. The combat issue is no surprise as it was effectively Chainmail (a medieval themed miniature wargame) with very loose RPG elements kludged on. Armor didn't so much make you harder to hit (Classic GURPS had this with PD but thought better of it for 4e) but rather harder to take damage (DR) which is what made Plate Armor which absorbed damage so unbalancing. More over D&D Hit Points were to quote the DMG1 "not actually a measure of physical damage" and in fact "a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors". There were many Murphy Rules on this. "Maybe more if it is loaded" with the image of a fighter taking a cannon ball to the stomach and not even stumbling. Another one showed people trying to execute a barbarian but thanks to his huge hit point total they couldn't do enough damage to decapitate him. IIRC the executioner was checking to see if his ax was sharp. One needed a host of instant kill kludges to fix this.
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01-18-2021, 12:10 PM | #46 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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The "problems" of D&D combat have always been semantic. The system does what it's supposed to do. GURPS doesn't solve D&D problems; it pulls away the abstraction and gives you the details. That's entirely a matter of preference. |
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01-18-2021, 05:01 PM | #47 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
That's one of the "sources of friction" to which I was alluding, yep. Absolutely.
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01-18-2021, 05:03 PM | #48 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
I happen to concur. I wrote Dragon Heresy in no small part to bridge some of the mechanics-to-narration gaps between a game like a GURPS and a game like 5e.
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01-25-2021, 08:56 AM | #49 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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The key concept to remember that Armor Class was developed for Miniature Wargaming. It wasn't a numerical rating then but rather a description that formed one entry on a cross-referenced chart. For Man to Man combat the cross-reference was between the weapon the attacker used and the armor worn by the defender. You roll 2d6 to see if you KILLED the defender. This section of the Chainmail rules was used for skirmish level combat such as siege assaults. In the Fantasy supplement, it took four hits in order to kill a Hero, and eight hits to kill a Super Hero. Whether it was on the field of battle using mass combat resolution or Man to Man combat. Dave Arneson quickly found that starting out with 1 hit to kill makes for a pretty deadly and worse boring mechanics for his Blackmoor Campaign. So hits to kill became 1 Hit Dice where you roll 1d6 hit points, and 1 hit to kill became 1d6 damage. When Gygax wrote D&D with Arneson this idea was carried over and persisted to the present as a central mechanic of classic D&D and newer editions. What this means? Well it meant that hit points more accurately represents combat endurance of which injury is only a part. Heroes (4th level) were expected to last four times longer than a veteran warrior (1st level). While Super Heroes were expected to last 8 times longer. Armor one wore extends how long you last in combat by make it hard for opponent to "kill" you or in later iteration harder to whittle down your combat endurance. The virtue of the system, at least for classic D&D, is that it resolves combat quickly with a minimum of steps. The disadvantage is that it is not as institutive as system that use Armor as damage reduction like GURPS and Runequest does. For me personally the way I handle it is as follows. From my recently released Majestic Fantasy RPG Quote:
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01-25-2021, 09:29 AM | #50 | |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: GURPS pitch to d20 players
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It was adopted by my players after a GURPS campaign where everybody played a 50 point city-guard (3rd Edition) in the City State of Invincible Overlord. They developed a operational procedure where everybody in a patrol would carry a loaded Knight Killer and shot it at the beginning of combat toward the biggest threats. The odds were low of a successful but usually one or two were scored. With their high impaling damage this was effective in taking down one or two of their opponents and made the odds better. Especially when their opponents were 125 to 150 NPC adventurers. As for my campaigns in 5th edition and OD&D. Once I had a handle on Armor Class as relayed in my previous posted. I felt that Crossbows of all kind in my campaign needed a substantial modifier to represent their ability to pernitrate armor. And as ranged weapon with a stock and capable of being sighted have an accuracy edge as well. So this bonus ranged for +2 for a light crossbow to a +4 for the knight killer. This can be seen in D&D's history in the infamous Weapons versus AC stable. Which made its first appearance in Supplement I Greyhawk for OD&D. That table in Greyhawk as a straightforward translation of the Man to Man table found in Chainmail. Instead of a 2d6 target, a modifier was calculated instead. As relayed earlier, with the addition of hit point this meant that combat endurance was whittled down faster when certain weapons were used against certain armor types. And some weapons were worse at affecting combat endurance. In OD&D AC had a direct one to one relationship with the armor worn. The numerical AC was a short hand for the different armor types and whether one was using a shield or not. In AD&D, additional armor types were introduced and the Weapon vs AC chart became more muddled as a result. Personally in my take, I incorporated the idea that some weapons are more effective against certain armor types, like crossbows that Douglas Cole relates. However I opted to not use a cross-referenced chart but put a modifier in the description of the weapon. For example Mace, Small 9d/ea. 3.0/lbs. Damage: 1d4+1 A weapon with a ball of metal affixed to the end. 18-24 inches long. It gets +1 to hit versus opponents wearing chainmail or gelatinous creatures like ochre jellies or black puddings. It is usable in the off hand when dual wielding. |
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