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Old 05-23-2016, 01:33 PM   #11
kdtipa
 
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
One example is single-action revolvers. They normally have RoF 1, but there are ways to fire them faster.
Aren't there rules in some of the gun supplements for GURPS about using techniques to fire faster? You'd need the recoil number for that.

I've also wondered if for an RoF 1 gun it would make sense to make the recoil apply to the next round shot if there is one. Basically just saying that if you keep firing one per second it'll apply the recoil, unless you take a second to recover/reload/whatever.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
I've also wondered if for an RoF 1 gun it would make sense to make the recoil apply to the next round shot if there is one. Basically just saying that if you keep firing one per second it'll apply the recoil, unless you take a second to recover/reload/whatever.
"Apply the recoil" doesn't really have a meaning.

But it definitely does not make sense for guns to acquire some kind of cross-turn penalty purely because they have RoF 1. You might imagine some guns that have a recoil that isn't fully recovered from second-to-second, sure. But that's a special weapon-specific thing, not a general result of RoF 1.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
"Apply the recoil" doesn't really have a meaning.

But it definitely does not make sense for guns to acquire some kind of cross-turn penalty purely because they have RoF 1. You might imagine some guns that have a recoil that isn't fully recovered from second-to-second, sure. But that's a special weapon-specific thing, not a general result of RoF 1.
I was writing too quickly... I'm at work. "Apply Recoil" was meant to say that a new attack roll might have the recoil as a penalty.

As for basing the round-to-round carry-over on RoF 1... you're right... it shouldn't be based on that. I starting to come around to the idea of Recoil being a cumulative penalty that resets if you take a second to recover/aim/whatever.
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Old 05-23-2016, 02:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
As for basing the round-to-round carry-over on RoF 1... you're right... it shouldn't be based on that. I starting to come around to the idea of Recoil being a cumulative penalty that resets if you take a second to recover/aim/whatever.
Maybe for some weapons, but definitely not appropriate as a general rule.

EDIT: It's wrong both for proper machine guns, which are not pushed off target while firing long bursts, and for (at least) light-caliber pistols which take much less than a second to recover from the recoil. I suspect the only things that it might be right for are lightweight, poorly-balanced full-automatic weapons.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Maybe for some weapons, but definitely not appropriate as a general rule.

EDIT: It's wrong both for proper machine guns, which are not pushed off target while firing long bursts, and for (at least) light-caliber pistols which take much less than a second to recover from the recoil. I suspect the only things that it might be right for are lightweight, poorly-balanced full-automatic weapons.
I always thought LMGs and HMGs still had recoil--less than rifles of the same bullet, of course, but still at least Rcl 2!
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Old 05-24-2016, 02:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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I always thought LMGs and HMGs still had recoil--less than rifles of the same bullet, of course, but still at least Rcl 2!
MGs have recoil, as do all projectile or beam weapons (including lasers).

The rcl stat, which is only very loosely related to recoil, is always at least 2 for any gun that isn't a beam weapon, firing a shotload, or using high-cyclic controlled bursts. It's always at least 1 for everything I know of except for Abilities with the Very Rapid Fire modifier from Powers 105, which effectively have rcl 1/2 (though they don't use that terminology).

But recoil doesn't make multiple consecutive seconds of firing become progressively less accurate with machine guns. It's usually not a good way to use the gun, as it overheats it faster and chews up a lot of ammo shooting at places where you've already put a bunch of bullets, but using an MG like a bullet hose won't make it a problem to control.
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Old 05-24-2016, 02:53 AM   #17
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
MGs have recoil, as do all projectile or beam weapons (including lasers).

The rcl stat, which is only very loosely related to recoil, is always at least 2 for any gun that isn't a beam weapon, firing a shotload, or using high-cyclic controlled bursts. It's always at least 1 for everything I know of except for Abilities with the Very Rapid Fire modifier from Powers 105, which effectively have rcl 1/2 (though they don't use that terminology).

But recoil doesn't make multiple consecutive seconds of firing become progressively less accurate with machine guns. It's usually not a good way to use the gun, as it overheats it faster and chews up a lot of ammo shooting at places where you've already put a bunch of bullets, but using an MG like a bullet hose won't make it a problem to control.
Wait--even lasers? Is that caused by the sheer energy output..?
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Wait--even lasers? Is that caused by the sheer energy output..?
Photons have momentum. It'd be far to little recoil to feel on any remotely realistic setup, but it would be there.
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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Wait--even lasers? Is that caused by the sheer energy output..?
I think Ulzgoroth's talking in terms of the GURPS stat not reality.

lasers have a recoil stat of 1 in GURPS because 1 is the lowest* stat you can have, if they had no recoil i.e. Rcl 0 Then you'd hit with your entire RoF on a single success.

However there's a difference between real world recoil (which some lasers may completely lack) and what GURPS calls recoil in order to reflect that when firing more than one round you are less and less likely to hit with all rounds fired as the number of rounds fired increases. Even if firing lots of rounds increases you chances** of hitting with at least one round.

On the HMG thing in real life yes in theory if you manage to completly brace a weapon to the point where there is no*** felt recoil effect one round to the next, then yes each and every round will be as likely to hit as the others****. But GURPS tends to show the positive effects of bracing etc with bonuses to the hit roll (just as increasing the number of rounds you fire gives a bonus to hit as well), it also allows you to correct your aim in successive rounds of fully automatic fire buy judging where you rounds are hitting, walking the burst, tracers etc.

But yes in GURPS a L/MMG that fires 7.62 will likely have rcl stat of 2, where as a battle rifle firing the same will have Rcl stat of 3. Because the same round fired out of a lighter weapon will increases the felt recoil and be harder to control.

So ultimately the Rcl stat (and FA rules in general) is a real hodge-podge of real life effects to give a game result while maintaining playability.




*leaving aside the v.rapid fire, power add-on mentioned

** although IMO only in some circumstances

***this is actually quite hard to do even on vehicle mounts

**** assuming no other variables such as target movement in the gap between the first and last bullet reaching them etc, etc

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-27-2016 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Recoil for Single-Shot Weapons

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I think Ulzgoroth's talking in terms of the GURPS stat not reality.
No, that was about reality.

I generally try to use "rcl" rather than "recoil" to refer to the game stat, to avoid conflating the stat named "recoil" with the physical phenomenon of recoil as much as I can.
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