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Old 05-13-2018, 09:13 AM   #1
johndallman
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Default [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

I'm playing in a 1930s horror campaign (not Cthulhu) where the characters started with no extraordinary abilities, apart from the ability to perceive magic as a glow, without knowing what it was. They have now learned enough about the secret magic of the setting to start buying magical abilities, via magic as powers.

They are having to buy them out of awarded experience, usually 3 points per session, so buying things in small increments is very desirable, and Alternative Abilities are attractive. The Sorcery system is not so practical, because you need to spend quite a lot up-front on its enabling advantages. My character is trying to invest in healing and related abilities, but I have run into a problem.

If you take Healing [30], Injuries Only -20% [24], and Healing [30], Diseases Only -40% [18], as an Alternative Ability [4], you end up having paid only 28 points for something that's as good as regular Healing. The actual builds have a lot more limitations, but this is the essence of the problem.

I haven't been able to find a sensible way around this. Any suggestions?
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:23 AM   #2
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

I think the core problem here is trying to take what's actually one advantage (Healing) as two different advantages and make them Alternate Abilities of each other. I don't think that's the intended use, and is always going to have problems.

If it was just Injuries Only and Diseases Only involved, I'd have the player buy Healing with one first (probably Diseases Only, since it's cheaper), then have them slowly buy off the limitation for Diseases Only, until they have full-on Healing. You can do this in "stages" by using Either/Or limitations, by the way. For example, you can start with just Diseases Only, -40%. Then, build it with Either Diseases Only or Capped, 2 FP + Empathic (which together are worth -75%). That works out to -30% total, and means that the character can cure diseases all right, but if they try to heal injuries, they can only spend 2 FP total, and suffer the wounds themselves. Then, you can progressively reduce the limitation value of Capped in the above build, which in turn reduces the total Either/Or build's limitation value. Eventually, the player can buy it off completely, learning how to get around the restrictions completely.

Now, if you're totally fixed on using Alternate Abilities, I'd suggest to use the Disease Only version of Healing, and make the injury healing part based on Regeneration, in an Affliction build. Afflicting Regeneration is a pretty good substitute for injury healing, and it won't run into the problem of trying to make something an Alternate Ability to itself.
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:46 AM   #3
johndallman
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I think the core problem here is trying to take what's actually one advantage (Healing) as two different advantages and make them Alternate Abilities of each other. I don't think that's the intended use, and is always going to have problems.
And yet, Alternate Abilities of different Afflictions work fine. It's more like Healing has an Alternate Ability built into it, as far as I can see, and trying to take that apart gives wonky results.
Quote:
If it was just Injuries Only and Diseases Only involved, I'd have the player buy Healing with one first (probably Diseases Only, since it's cheaper), then have them slowly buy off the limitation for Diseases Only, until they have full-on Healing.
There are some practical problems with that approach. The character wants to be able to cure diseases on herself, since there is no other way of doing it with powers. But full-on Healing with Affects Self is quite expensive. She also want to be able to do a plausible job of stabilising a Mortal Wound, which is going to take more than two FP.
Quote:
Now, if you're totally fixed on using Alternate Abilities, I'd suggest to use the Disease Only version of Healing, and make the injury healing part based on Regeneration, in an Affliction build. Afflicting Regeneration is a pretty good substitute for injury healing, and it won't run into the problem of trying to make something an Alternate Ability to itself.
The plan for healing herself was Regeneration (Slow), but that's a pain for healing others, because you have to concentrate on one person for a long time. The character intends to stay out of fight as much as possible herself, but we have a martial artist who must be expected to get badly hurt occasionally.

Let me try a different idea....
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:09 AM   #4
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
And yet, Alternate Abilities of different Afflictions work fine. It's more like Healing has an Alternate Ability built into it, as far as I can see, and trying to take that apart gives wonky results.
I'd say Afflictions are the exception here, not Healing. Most advantages aren't going to work as Alternate Abilities of themselves. Affliction's just a special case because it's so very variable. But I certainly wouldn't allow a build of, say, Damage Resistance with one block of "Fire Only" and another of "Ice Only".

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman
There are some practical problems with that approach. The character wants to be able to cure diseases on herself, since there is no other way of doing it with powers. But full-on Healing with Affects Self is quite expensive. She also want to be able to do a plausible job of stabilising a Mortal Wound, which is going to take more than two FP.
So, question - do the enhancements on the curing injuries part add up to +20% or more? Because if they do, one option you could look at is Alternate Enhancements, from Power-Ups 4 (p. 13). The way that works is, you take two mutually-exclusive enhancements, and reduce the cheaper one by 1/5th, then apply the total enhancement value to the advantage. I've allowed this to work with packages of modifiers, as long as the total value of each package works out to an enhancement.

In this case, one package would be Disease Only and Affects Self, for a total of +10%. If the other set was, say, Reduced Fatigue Cost 1, Reliable 1, and Injuries Only, that would work out to +5%, divided by 5 to only 1%. So you'd end up with a net +11% enhancement on Healing.

Would something like that work?
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I've allowed this to work with packages of modifiers, as long as the total value of each package works out to an enhancement.
Ninjaed while I was writing my reply :)
I wanted to support this though.
I use Afflictions the same way and actually have an example build with 2 packages.
Package 1 Affliction effect granted.
Package 2 Mixed levels of Malediction and Increased Duration or Area or Trigger. This allows mixing things up quite a bit.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
But I certainly wouldn't allow a build of, say, Damage Resistance with one block of "Fire Only" and another of "Ice Only".
I would because during any given turn they are only going to be able to defend using one or the other, not both. So when they are hit with both fire and ice attacks in the same turn, one gets through.

However on other Advantages, those that are deliberately used and won't ever need to be used simultaneously, yeah, doing this is a problem.
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Old 05-13-2018, 12:18 PM   #7
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I would because during any given turn they are only going to be able to defend using one or the other, not both. So when they are hit with both fire and ice attacks in the same turn, one gets through.
I'd still rather build that with Either/Or limitations, I think, rather than Alternate Abilities.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post

The plan for healing herself was Regeneration (Slow), but that's a pain for healing others, because you have to concentrate on one person for a long time. The character intends to stay out of fight as much as possible herself, but we have a martial artist who must be expected to get badly hurt occasionally.

Let me try a different idea....
Is your problem you think Alternate Abilities are too cheap? I dont understand some of your comments.
I offer the following ideas.
Alternative Enhancements on Afflictions is REALLY handy and in most cases better than AA for them.
I dont understand why Affliction (Regeneration) is bad here, its a fire and forget ability, or is that because of those other limitations? See Sorcery for support if your not sure.
You do need to enhance the duration though.

Finally how about Power Stunts and Abilities at Default? Use Thaumatology as a skill instead of Will. A bit FP heavy but cheaper for a variety of abilities.
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My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
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REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:46 AM   #9
johndallman
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

To be absolutely explicit, because everyone is missing it, I'm a player, not the GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Is your problem you think Alternate Abilities are too cheap?
Not in general, but there's an odd case here, as per the first post. There was a claim that AAs of the same basic power are wrong, but the workability of AAs of Afflictions are evidence that isn't always true.

However, I am not keen on using Affliction builds for healing powers because of the cost. I'm trying to build something useful out of very few points, because it's coming out of per-session experience, rather than at character generation. That means I'm going to have to accept limitations on its flexibility.

My current version is to have two separately modified versions of Healing, that are quite separate:

Diseases: Healing [30], Affects Self +50%, Magical -10%, Diseases Only -40%, Immediate Preparation Required, 1 minute (time for basic treatment), -30%, Triggering substance, Common (Woundwort and first aid kit) -20%, 4/day -20%, net cost [9].

When used to cure disease, the subject still has to recover from the symptoms. Healing hit point damage done by the disease works, but doesn’t wipe away symptoms.

Regeneration (Slow), Magical -10% , [9], as an AA of Diseases [2]. These are both abilities that affect the character that has them.

Injuries: Healing [30], Magical -10%, Injuries Only -20%, Immediate Preparation Required, 1 minute (time for basic treatment), -30%, Triggering substance, Common (Woundwort and first aid kit) -20%, net cost [6].

Can stabilise a mortal wound, at a cost of 10FP.
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Old 05-13-2018, 12:17 PM   #10
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Basic, Powers] Cost issue with Healing Alternative Abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
There was a claim that AAs of the same basic power are wrong, but the workability of AAs of Afflictions are evidence that isn't always true.
Yes, but, as I said, Affliction's the outlier here, not everything else. In general, I think you're going to run into problems trying to combine Alternate Abilities and the "Only X" sort of limitations. They're just not designed to be used together.

Actually, even Afflictions are probably better built, as Refplace said, with Alternate Enhancements on one Affliction, rather than Alternate Abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman
Diseases: Healing [30], Affects Self +50%, Magical -10%, Diseases Only -40%, Immediate Preparation Required, 1 minute (time for basic treatment), -30%, Triggering substance, Common (Woundwort and first aid kit) -20%, 4/day -20%, net cost [9].

When used to cure disease, the subject still has to recover from the symptoms. Healing hit point damage done by the disease works, but doesn’t wipe away symptoms.

Regeneration (Slow), Magical -10% , [9], as an AA of Diseases [2]. These are both abilities that affect the character that has them.

Injuries: Healing [30], Magical -10%, Injuries Only -20%, Immediate Preparation Required, 1 minute (time for basic treatment), -30%, Triggering substance, Common (Woundwort and first aid kit) -20%, net cost [6].
Here's what I'd suggest for this build: Both Healing abilities are the same advantage. Put all the shared modifiers on it as normal (that is, Magical, Immediate Preparation Required, and Trigger). Then, total the modifiers for the different "packages" - for diseases, that's Affects Self, Diseases Only, and Limited Use, for a total of -10%, while for injuries, it's just Injuries Only, -20%. Use Either/Or limitations to get a final limitation value of those two of -2%, which I would round up to -5% (smaller Either/Or limitations tend to undervalue the final limitation, I feel, so rounding up is reasonable).

That gives you a final build of
Healing (Magical, -10%; Immediate Preparation Required, 1 minute (time for basic treatment), -30%; Triggering substance, Common (Woundwort and first aid kit), -20%; Either Affects Self, Diseases Only, and Limited Use, 4/day Or Injuries Only, -5%) [11]

This, I'll note, is actually cheaper than building it as two separate Healing abilities, so some points are saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman
Can stabilise a mortal wound, at a cost of 10FP.
A question - is the injury healing supposed to be an absolute last resort, "only use this to stabilize a mortal wound" sort of thing? If it is, you could include another limitation, basically the reverse of Capped, where you must spend a certain amount of FP, no matter how severe the wound actually is. I'd price that at -5% for the number of FP past 1 you have to spend, so 10 FP minimum would be -45%, for example.
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