Agnostic Evil in TFT

hcobb · 06-06-2020, 11:24 AM

How can TFT have "Good" and "Evil" without a true god?

Melee page 22: "An ORC is just like a human figure – but most are evil."

So, we're starting with the evil races of LOTR, right?

ITL 62: "The best way to acquire sroash is by gaining the respect – better yet, the fear – of those around you."

Sounds EVIL to me.

ITL 77: "There are occasional “good” orcs, but even these tend to be harsh, uncompromising military types."

So there is hope for personal redemption for a member of an evil race?

ITL 80: "The basic difference between “good” and “evil” dragons is that good ones have a sense of honor that extends to humans – that is, they care what humans think about them."

Ah ha, Good and Evil are defined in terms of human perception. The entire evil race thing is a tool of the Bards' Guild, so they can sell their stories.

Skarg · 06-07-2020, 12:17 PM

"How can TFT have "Good" and "Evil" without a true god?"
- Because good and evil are only the exclusive property of "a true god" according to certain rather um... closed-minded... members of a minority of religions.

"Melee page 22: "An ORC is just like a human figure – but most are evil."
So, we're starting with the evil races of LOTR, right?"
- No.

Chris Rice · 06-07-2020, 03:28 PM

Good and Evil are not absolutes; they're perceptions based on behaviour and cultural norms. This isn't D&D with some laughable "alignment" system, it's more like what a "real" fantasy world would be like.

Humans; "Orcs are Evil. They live in squalor and eat the corpses of their fallen enemies."

Orcs; "Humans are Evil. The build unnatural dwellings and dishonour their defeated foes by leaving their bodies to rot."

JimmyPlenty · 06-07-2020, 04:55 PM

Good and evil can be done without religion. But religion (or a following of a mindset of a group or faction) does help focus and refine these actions.

Not that I use them, but I find the alignment system is not so inaccurate. Have you ever watched a show and seen an episode where someone seemed "out of character"? That's an alignment break. Some poindexter that follow rules to a T all of a sudden breaks the speed limit...on purpose...that's an alignment break.

Some people might argue that alignment are silly because most people do not fit under any category. I would agree, those people are neutral. Probably the mass of humanity belongs there.

Now, the old D&D punishments for that are pretty harsh. A godly man who does one misdeed (unless major) losing all powers is pretty crazy. I would think if they start going down another path consistently, then the diety pulls away, that makes more sense.

Overall, even though I would not use alignments in a game, they really are there incognito. If you make a holy warrior (with the intent of being holy, not an evil tyrant type holy man), they best act holy. If you make a charlatan salesman, they best rip off your grandmother.

Skarg · 06-08-2020, 12:44 AM

I wouldn't say "alignments are there incognito".

I would say that some people and/or organizations have some moral codes or other ways they behave or don't behave for a variety or reasons, for which "alignment" is just one limited D&D-branded way of labeling and thinking about how a character thinks and acts.

Axly Suregrip · 06-11-2020, 08:45 PM

Seems to me the point of Good/Evil is a way to codify a character's (PC/NPC) motives. ITL pg 14 has a Main Motivation table.

BTW, the MM table in concept is not to far from another RPG (Sword's Path Glory) that had a "Karma System". Basically there were 7 karma paths, like Glory or Order, etc, that you had to choose one for your character. If you strayed from you lost XP or acted in line with it you gained extra XP.

With the ITL system it is not so closed. If you want you can create additional motives. For example, "Family Status", "Fame", "Renown honor", etc.

How your character pursues their motive will largely be controlled by personality (see the next table on pg 14). A dishonest & cowardly Glory hound will seek easy fights or secret advantages. A brave, aggressive Glory hound will find every fight (even against odds) impossible to avoid (hopefully the GM will double his XP for charging into death defying situations).

To this end, I think players should pick their character's motivation and personality instead of rolling them. A bad fit between the play's and the character's personalities could ruin the fun (or add to it... but you gotta know yourself).

Skarg · 06-11-2020, 08:58 PM

I think those traits are there to provide ideas for people who are struggling to think of a character idea they want to play.

I think the tables are there to provide a simple mechanism to help people who have a hard time choosing between them.

That is, they're take-them-or-leave-them, use-them-or-not-as-you-wish idea seeds.

I don't think the tables are meant as anything more than that.

06-06-2020, 11:24 AM	#1
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Agnostic Evil in TFT How can TFT have "Good" and "Evil" without a true god? Melee page 22: "An ORC is just like a human figure – but most are evil." So, we're starting with the evil races of LOTR, right? ITL 62: "The best way to acquire sroash is by gaining the respect – better yet, the fear – of those around you." Sounds EVIL to me. ITL 77: "There are occasional “good” orcs, but even these tend to be harsh, uncompromising military types." So there is hope for personal redemption for a member of an evil race? ITL 80: "The basic difference between “good” and “evil” dragons is that good ones have a sense of honor that extends to humans – that is, they care what humans think about them." Ah ha, Good and Evil are defined in terms of human perception. The entire evil race thing is a tool of the Bards' Guild, so they can sell their stories. __________________ -HJC

06-07-2020, 12:17 PM	#2
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT "How can TFT have "Good" and "Evil" without a true god?" - Because good and evil are only the exclusive property of "a true god" according to certain rather um... closed-minded... members of a minority of religions. "Melee page 22: "An ORC is just like a human figure – but most are evil." So, we're starting with the evil races of LOTR, right?" - No.

06-07-2020, 03:28 PM	#3
Chris Rice Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT Good and Evil are not absolutes; they're perceptions based on behaviour and cultural norms. This isn't D&D with some laughable "alignment" system, it's more like what a "real" fantasy world would be like. Humans; "Orcs are Evil. They live in squalor and eat the corpses of their fallen enemies." Orcs; "Humans are Evil. The build unnatural dwellings and dishonour their defeated foes by leaving their bodies to rot."

06-07-2020, 04:55 PM	#4
JimmyPlenty Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT Good and evil can be done without religion. But religion (or a following of a mindset of a group or faction) does help focus and refine these actions. Not that I use them, but I find the alignment system is not so inaccurate. Have you ever watched a show and seen an episode where someone seemed "out of character"? That's an alignment break. Some poindexter that follow rules to a T all of a sudden breaks the speed limit...on purpose...that's an alignment break. Some people might argue that alignment are silly because most people do not fit under any category. I would agree, those people are neutral. Probably the mass of humanity belongs there. Now, the old D&D punishments for that are pretty harsh. A godly man who does one misdeed (unless major) losing all powers is pretty crazy. I would think if they start going down another path consistently, then the diety pulls away, that makes more sense. Overall, even though I would not use alignments in a game, they really are there incognito. If you make a holy warrior (with the intent of being holy, not an evil tyrant type holy man), they best act holy. If you make a charlatan salesman, they best rip off your grandmother.

06-08-2020, 12:44 AM	#5
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT I wouldn't say "alignments are there incognito". I would say that some people and/or organizations have some moral codes or other ways they behave or don't behave for a variety or reasons, for which "alignment" is just one limited D&D-branded way of labeling and thinking about how a character thinks and acts.

06-11-2020, 08:45 PM	#6
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT Seems to me the point of Good/Evil is a way to codify a character's (PC/NPC) motives. ITL pg 14 has a Main Motivation table. BTW, the MM table in concept is not to far from another RPG (Sword's Path Glory) that had a "Karma System". Basically there were 7 karma paths, like Glory or Order, etc, that you had to choose one for your character. If you strayed from you lost XP or acted in line with it you gained extra XP. With the ITL system it is not so closed. If you want you can create additional motives. For example, "Family Status", "Fame", "Renown honor", etc. How your character pursues their motive will largely be controlled by personality (see the next table on pg 14). A dishonest & cowardly Glory hound will seek easy fights or secret advantages. A brave, aggressive Glory hound will find every fight (even against odds) impossible to avoid (hopefully the GM will double his XP for charging into death defying situations). To this end, I think players should pick their character's motivation and personality instead of rolling them. A bad fit between the play's and the character's personalities could ruin the fun (or add to it... but you gotta know yourself).

06-11-2020, 08:58 PM	#7
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Agnostic Evil in TFT I think those traits are there to provide ideas for people who are struggling to think of a character idea they want to play. I think the tables are there to provide a simple mechanism to help people who have a hard time choosing between them. That is, they're take-them-or-leave-them, use-them-or-not-as-you-wish idea seeds. I don't think the tables are meant as anything more than that.