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Old 10-05-2016, 04:06 PM   #11
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Sure, but superheros are already silly! Superhero powered armor isn't really the same thing as realistic powered exoskeletons and probably ought to use different mechanics.
Well, if you feel that way, you ought not to use the Fixed ST mechanic from GURPS Supers. Easy peasy.
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
Why do you see that the force exerted on the user has to be so high? That is the things I do not see.
If it works by the user issuing a command to a robot arm to move, rather than responding to the movement of the arm inside and providing support, it's moving independently and if the force is greater than the user can naturally exert (which if it isn't then what's the point?) then that can certainly cause injury.
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I think you are missing the point of how feedback in a exoskeleton type thing works. There are sensors that feel what direction you are pushing in and then tells the motors to mimic that move. Thus in effect you are indeed telling the robot to move the arm as you do, but as you stop moving the robot stops moving so there are no crushed limbs (unless there is a bug of course).
If you just make a lifting motion and it interprets this as a command to execute a lifting movement, it doesn't know how fast to lift, or how far, or for how long. For the feedback to work the user has to actually also be lifting, supported by the suit.

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Why do you think that the robot would be deliberately programmed to continue moving even when it feels the user stops movement as you seem to imply with your crushed limbs comment?
Since the suit is stronger than the user, if it just executes a programmed motion on command, the user wouldn't be able to stop movement. It would be like having your arm inside the blade of a hydralic forklift.

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There likely needs to be a proportional feedback to the user/power use by the exoskeleton based on used power so they can "feel the weight" of objects, but the scaling of that feedback does not have to be the same for all users, it could easily be something you program as part of the fitting routine. Current technology already allows scaling force within a range fairly easily, thus for the ST 8 person the feedback could simulate lifting 5lb object at highest end and for a ST 15 person it could simulate a 20 lb object.
Yes, but for reasonable human ST ranges adding ST is nearly effectively the same thing as adding a flat bonus to BL and then figuring out a new ST. This avoids messy math that (presumably) many GURPS players dislike.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Well, if you feel that way, you ought not to use the Fixed ST mechanic from GURPS Supers. Easy peasy.
Well, I don't feel strongly either way, the exact mechanics are subject to the need at hand. However I don't get any impression that the OP is talking about Iron Man holding up a jumbo jet by with his fingers, but rather with more realistic exoskeletons. He specifically mentions GURPS Ultra-Tech and concerns with the engineering needed to do this.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-05-2016 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by Joseph Paul View Post
Does it bother anyone else that Battlesuits are built with no upper limit to their mechanical power? ST 10 trooper gets in his suit and he has ST 20. ST 30 humanoid gets in the same model and the suit performs at ST 40. Why isn't that extra 20 points of ST available to the ST 10 guy? Mechanically what is happening here?
Well, in theory the battlesuit is augmenting the user's strength rather than replacing it, though in the first case we've got +60 BL (20->80) while in the second we have +140 (180->320). Realistically, either the battlesuit should be adding a flat amount of BL, or the weight and cost of the battlesuit should scale with the wearer, but both are a hassle and have the side effect of making ST even less useful than it already is in high tech games.
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Old 10-05-2016, 07:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
If it works by the user issuing a command to a robot arm to move, rather than responding to the movement of the arm inside and providing support, it's moving independently and if the force is greater than the user can naturally exert (which if it isn't then what's the point?) then that can certainly cause injury.
Why would you program it in such a stupid way to not stop when the arm stops?

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If you just make a lifting motion and it interprets this as a command to execute a lifting movement, it doesn't know how fast to lift, or how far, or for how long. For the feedback to work the user has to actually also be lifting, supported by the suit.
Yes it can, you move your arm and thus push against one sensor and the thing moves that way, that push does not have to be any actual strength, just enough to make the sensor feel it.

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Since the suit is stronger than the user, if it just executes a programmed motion on command, the user wouldn't be able to stop movement. It would be like having your arm inside the blade of a hydralic forklift.
Again, why would you do such stupid things and not have a sensor in the opposite side of the arm too to stop/slow down as needed? Do you assume that all engineers are idiots or?

I guess a schematic is needed since a push sensor on both sides it so complex apparently.

<-Direction A Direction B->

A section of say the arm and the exoskeleton around it.

*a###b*
*a###b*
*a###b*
*a###b*
*a###b*
*a###b*

*=exoskeleton
a=pressure sensor on side A
###=Arm
b=pressure sensor on side B

The user moves the arm in direction "A":
->The sensor "a" detects a pressure/force increase as the use tries to "push" in that direction.
->The sensor "b" detects a lessening of pressure as the user is trying to move the arm away from that direction".
->The computer thus notices that the exoskeleton should move in direction "A" too and starts the movement in that direction.
->The assisted movement thus allows the users arm to move easily in direction.

Thus as long as the user is pressing the arm against sensor "a" harder than towards sensor "b" indicating movement in that direction the arm moves.

If the user slows down the push in direction "A":
->The sensor "b" detects that the pressure increases.
->The sensor "a" detects a lessening of pressure.
->The computer thus notices that the exoskeleton should slow down move in direction "A". And slows it down relative to the pressure.
->The assisted movement thus allows the users arm to slow down and the pressure on "b" lowers until the pressure on both sensors is equal.
Thus when the user stops trying to move his arm in that direction the exoskeleton stops.

The same in opposite way for moving towards direction "B".

All those changes in speed can happen really fast with sensor technology detecting changes in the pressure fast, computers processing the needed signals fast and electric motors being fast to change power.

Thus the user really does not have to lift/push more weight than their own arm+the sensor sensitivity limits+error margin.

That is the base system. You would of course need more than 2 sensors to get things like hand rotation and such, but the above is the simplified version to show the base movement.

Obviously the real system has to also take into account things like the effects of gravity pressing the arm more against one side as the angle changes, movement limits, twitch protection and such, but that is just engineering, more sensors and calibration.

Also a desirable trait is that the suit "pushes back" a bit in a way that is relative to the strain on the motors to give better feedback. But even this feedback does not need to be equally strong for all users and in any case can(and likely should) be significantly lower than maximum user strength.

Actually allowing the user ST to be used to assist the exoskeleton would make the sensors more complex as they would have to take into account the varied strengths and be strong enough to allow that strong push against them often. Thus the current experimental implementations of exoskeletons that I have read about use only "light" push from the user. Thus they act like "fixed ST" exoskeletons, not +ST.

Though the "light" in some of them is fairly high (but still far from maximum effort) to cut down wrong impulses, but is steady regardless of the user, better sensors and calibration cuts down on that need.

Quote:
Yes, but for reasonable human ST ranges adding ST is nearly effectively the same thing as adding a flat bonus to BL and then figuring out a new ST. This avoids messy math that (presumably) many GURPS players dislike.
Even at reasonable human ranges it makes the same suit be double the effect(or more) for some users.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by Joseph Paul View Post
Does it bother anyone else that Battlesuits are built with no upper limit to their mechanical power? ST 10 trooper gets in his suit and he has ST 20. ST 30 humanoid gets in the same model and the suit performs at ST 40. Why isn't that extra 20 points of ST available to the ST 10 guy? Mechanically what is happening here?
Perhaps reverse the concept? The user's strength is augmenting the battlesuit systems? So suit ST 10 + variable user's ST.
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Old 10-05-2016, 09:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

Sir Pudding - did you perhaps miss reading Starship Troopers by Heinlein? The main character gives a run down of how the suits work that has pretty much become gospel because it was good engineering. You don't operate a suit you just wear it. You move, it moves with you. Move hard and the suit adds strength. So a bounce becomes a leap. It takes practice to handle an egg but smashing walls is easy.

What weby is outlining is substantially the same.
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by Joseph Paul View Post
Sir Pudding - did you perhaps miss reading Starship Troopers by Heinlein? The main character gives a run down of how the suits work that has pretty much become gospel because it was good engineering. You don't operate a suit you just wear it. You move, it moves with you. Move hard and the suit adds strength. So a bounce becomes a leap. It takes practice to handle an egg but smashing walls is easy.

What weby is outlining is substantially the same.
That's describing a suit in which the wearer has to actually put some effort into doing things... IMO, anyway, clearly you disagree and this isn't going anywhere.
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Presumably the idea is that a realistic exoskeleton augments rather than replaces wearer strength. Because ST is quadratic, adding ST is really a multiplier for the characters lifting power. A very strong exoskeleton that just moves on its own without feedback would probably break your limbs.
With this in mind, shouldn't there be a limit still? To me the suit should be a divider for the weight to be carried and have an upper limit. so for an ST 10 suit this adds 20 lbs to the BL of the user. for someone with ST 10 this would make things feel like its only 1/2 the normal weight. for someone with ST 20, the suit doesn't help, you are helping the suit!

I am sleepy so if none of this makes sense its because I am sleepy and should be ignored...
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Old 10-06-2016, 12:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
That's describing a suit in which the wearer has to actually put some effort into doing things... IMO, anyway, clearly you disagree and this isn't going anywhere.
Pretty much this. Most systems I've researched used force feed back so that the user felt a portion of the weight they were moving. This helped the user maintain a sense of what they were moving and acted as a safety system as well, if the user didn't feel how heavy what he was moving was, he's liable to lose control and accidentally throw heavy objects around.
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:23 AM   #20
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Default Re: Battlesuit ST

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Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
Pretty much this. Most systems I've researched used force feed back so that the user felt a portion of the weight they were moving. This helped the user maintain a sense of what they were moving and acted as a safety system as well, if the user didn't feel how heavy what he was moving was, he's liable to lose control and accidentally throw heavy objects around.
Nut my point is that feed back does not mean that a stronger user would get more total work out of it. A feedback can be proportional to the user's strength.
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