Area Attacks--Am I Missing Something?

[Sdrolion]

To be clear, I'm not looking at this from a realistic angle--I'm looking at it from a game playability one. Yeah--straight AE physical/energy damage attacks are not realistic (arguably, a poison cloud sort of thing is, though), and if you're building a realistic game you should basically just go with Explosion/Frags instead (if you even bother with building things as advans instead of using GURPS honestly-quite-good selection of existing explosives). The way that you could "realistically" dodge an AE attack is therefore not really a concern, since an AE attack really can't be said to exist in reality for the majority of attack types. Furthermore, what is "realistic" depends somewhat on what an AE attack means to you: the GURPS books use the "fills an area" interpretation, which means that, correct, it wouldn't be strictly realistic to allow someone to "dodge" it unless they could actually leave the area by doing so. However, another interpretation is just that the attack hits the area and attacks everyone in it with individual bolts/beams/etc. (just a multi-target attack defined by attack zone rather than number of shots), in which case a dodge is indeed very realistic. That said...that's pretty clearly not what the GURPS books are going for.

Anyway, just wanted to make sure I was indeed properly reading the rules and hadn't missed something, and it seems that I was reading it right.

For anyone interested: my opinion, in general, on this is that AE is overpowered for its price: the default meaning of AE should probably be more along the lines of the multi-target attack, above: it just attacks everything in the area with a single attack roll, and they get to defend as normal for a ranged innate attack. That, in my mind, is more than enough value for +50% per level. Then, if someone wants to do a "fills the area" type, that could raise the cost (I'd say at least +100%, but honestly, I could see going further if you're actually going to almost completely disable active defense with this thing--though it should still be lower than the full +300% for disables Active Defense, as there are indeed some types that work against it: cover, getting out of the area, and certain power-based defenses.).

I guess the main reason I have a problem with this, honestly, is that GURPS is a system in which one hit can massively change the course of the battle--it isn't like in some other systems, where you're likely going to be hit time and time again and still be able to go on fighting perfectly well (though I'm sure there are GURPS character builds that can do that, likely via high DR or using DR to represent more HP, or using Injury Tolerance). And that's a strength of GURPS, to me, by the way. But this--which basically guarantees a hit and doesn't cost so much that it's prohibitive to mess with it--doesn't really play nice with that idea. It's relatively easy to create a fairly low-CP cost attack with this that is astonishingly lethal to any active defense-focused character build (your stereotypical fantasy martial artist, expert swordsman, acrobatic thief, ninja, etc.).

This resonates a little more with me, I guess, because in our game 3 out of the 4 player characters are low-DR, active-defense focused characters...and we frequently run into enemies of the same type. So, basically, this attack would probably be massive death to the majority of the combatants out there.

Anyway, I've got some solutions for the game that I'll be looking over (likely just using the multi-target attack version above unless another modifier such as Respiratory Agent, which has its own specified reasonably common defense, is also used--that way we can still allow AE attacks that aren't "explosions," but they aren't superlethal), but wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something that would negate any need to modify/exclude this power first.

[roguebfl]

The Reason it is cheaper the +300% Cosmic, is it hits every thing in the area wither you want to or not, the the very least it is extensive coloratura property damage, if not allies or innocents, All taking the full damage that you're tring to hit your target with.

where the Cosmic one only the target is getting hit by the precision shot, unless less you over penetrate.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

The Reason it is cheaper the +300% Cosmic, is it hits every thing in the area wither you want to or not, the the very least it is extensive coloratura property damage, if not allies or innocents, All taking the full damage that you're tring to hit your target with.

where the Cosmic one only the target is getting hit by the precision shot, unless less you over penetrate.

Except you can take Selective for your Area attack, which does exactly what you're describing - allows you to hit just the targets you want, without damaging allies or property. And under the default rules, it still restricts active defenses in the same manner as a normal Area attack. It's far cheaper than Cosmic, too.

Originally Posted by Sdrolion

For anyone interested: my opinion, in general, on this is that AE is overpowered for its price: the default meaning of AE should probably be more along the lines of the multi-target attack, above: it just attacks everything in the area with a single attack roll, and they get to defend as normal for a ranged innate attack. That, in my mind, is more than enough value for +50% per level. Then, if someone wants to do a "fills the area" type, that could raise the cost (I'd say at least +100%, but honestly, I could see going further if you're actually going to almost completely disable active defense with this thing--though it should still be lower than the full +300% for disables Active Defense, as there are indeed some types that work against it: cover, getting out of the area, and certain power-based defenses.).

What you're describing is the Bombardment limitation (pg 111). You could easily rule that it is the default for Area (and possibly Cone) attacks, granting no extra points.

[psydraco]

Sorry for reviving this.

I know it is not realistc. But it dos not mean that it can be unballanced. Right?
The problem here is that with a Skill 12, you can hit anyone near allowing no defense for just +%50 and causing large area injury. How can this be ballanced?

In my campaing, I changed the cost for 2yd to +200%, 3yd +400%, 4yd +600% and so on.
I mean, it is really overpowered in a campaing that 99% of the characters have move no more than 10.

You can with a 2 yd, easily hit more than one target, assuming you are automatically hitting the one in the center. So, 200% looks very fair.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by psydraco

Sorry for reviving this.

I know it is not realistc. But it dos not mean that it can be unballanced. Right?
The problem here is that with a Skill 12, you can hit anyone near allowing no defense for just +%50 and causing large area injury. How can this be ballanced?

It's not quite "no defense." There are defenses that can work: Cosmic defenses probably do, Powered defenses often do, high enough step will allow you to make a normal dodge, and in many Supers games the effect just isn't that dangerous to those that couldn't or wouldn't defend.

In my campaing, I changed the cost for 2yd to +200%, 3yd +400%, 4yd +600% and so on.
I mean, it is really overpowered in a campaing that 99% of the characters have move no more than 10.

You can with a 2 yd, easily hit more than one target, assuming you are automatically hitting the one in the center. So, 200% looks very fair.

I've never had an issue with the normal cost, and at that price you should be comparing it to someone could alternatively buy. On "just" a 5d cr attack - basically assault weapon values - that's 50 points. For that you could have +12 skill that you can turn into -6 to defend or a targeted eye shot, +200% RoF (31-70 shots for a skill bonus, plenty to defend, and multiples of the same damage), a very large Cone, or a massive Acc bonus + Homing (talk about fire and forget).

[Jefepato]

Originally Posted by naloth

It's not quite "no defense." There are defenses that can work: Cosmic defenses probably do, Powered defenses often do, high enough step will allow you to make a normal dodge, and in many Supers games the effect just isn't that dangerous to those that couldn't or wouldn't defend.

Unfortunately, PU4 (sidebar on page 7) explicitly says that Cosmic defenses don't apply to area-of-effect attacks.

I've actually been wondering for a while how someone might stat up the (highly cinematic) ability to, D&D-style, "make a Reflex save" (i.e. Dodge) and somehow avoid the worst of an area attack, even if it shouldn't be physically possible to move in a way that would make any difference.

Of course, it wouldn't be that hard to literally stat up the half-damage thing (just do Damage Reduction with "only AoE attacks" and "Dodge roll required"), but I'm not sure that's the best way to translate that ability into GURPS.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Jefepato

Unfortunately, PU4 (sidebar on page 7) explicitly says that Cosmic defenses don't apply to area-of-effect attacks.

Yea, saw that afterwards. It just doesn't come up much.

I've actually been wondering for a while how someone might stat up the (highly cinematic) ability to, D&D-style, "make a Reflex save" (i.e. Dodge) and somehow avoid the worst of an area attack, even if it shouldn't be physically possible to move in a way that would make any difference.

Against explosions you should be able to dodge into any cover (behind DR) that's within your step range. Damage attacks that "fill the entire area" rather than "originating from a point" should be rare and harder to justify.

Of course, it wouldn't be that hard to literally stat up the half-damage thing (just do Damage Reduction with "only AoE attacks" and "Dodge roll required"), but I'm not sure that's the best way to translate that ability into GURPS.

You could mandate it such that "in this campaign anyone can "roll" with an area attack taking half damage from a successful dodge".

I more tried and true method would be to allow an imbuement/TBAM skill "roll with attack" that gives you IT:DR against one attack (costs fatigue, requires roll, etc). The concept isn't any more unfair or unreasonable than the other cinematic skills. You'd just have to decide what fatigue costs and skill penalties make it "fair" for your game.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Jefepato

I've actually been wondering for a while how someone might stat up the (highly cinematic) ability to, D&D-style, "make a Reflex save" (i.e. Dodge) and somehow avoid the worst of an area attack, even if it shouldn't be physically possible to move in a way that would make any difference.

"Save for Half Damage" is typically a feature of the spell/ability rather than the character in That Other Game, so might as well make it the same here - apply "Resistible (Dodge)" to half the damage, and you're good. There's an exception that certain classes do get an ability that lets them change that to "Save Negates," and I think there's an upgrade to it that makes it so a failed save still results in half damage. That last one is fairly easy, actually - IT:DR (Area Effects with "Reflex Saves"), but the "Save Negates" bit is more problematic, given it brushes against GURPS' "No Such Thing as an Absolute" policy. Maybe something like a modified Insubstantiality (with Limitations including "Only against area effects with "reflex saves" and "Requires successful Dodge roll").


Area Effect can probably be toned down a bit with a few adjustments. First, require it to have a point (or plane, if it's more like a wave than an explosion) of origin, set when the ability is designed; this will typically be the center (something that truly just fills an entire area instantly needs a further Enhancement, possibly just straight up Cosmic: No Defense Allowed +300%). Any cover between the point/plane of origin will provide DR against the attack, but only so long as you succeed at your Dodge roll to properly get behind it. It may not be inappropriate to define the first level of Area Effect as simply filling a single hex, however, then a further +50% per additional hex of radius (or +50% per doubling; this makes most Area Effects have a further +50% compared to their current builds).

[Black Leviathan]

A 2-yrd AOE rarely gets more than one enemy, it's 50% more for a tough to dodge effect. But also a straight AOE effect rather than an explosive attack would be pretty rare.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

A 2-yrd AOE rarely gets more than one enemy, it's 50% more for a tough to dodge effect. But also a straight AOE effect rather than an explosive attack would be pretty rare.

Maybe not necessarily.

In particular, effects that fill a space with flame are something of a thing. Even in real weapons - thermobarics are like that if you're close enough to them. And magic effects that flood an area with a wide variety of Bad are common in gaming and not rare in fiction either.