Lorenzoni Lock TL4 Firearms

[Godogma]

The question I have about the article is if their estimate is actually based on anything aside from guesswork?

Did they use the action and actually fire the gun? Most likely not, the firearm in question is likely priceless as Lorenzoni action firearms are quite rare due to the sheer amount of labor involved making them not the most inexpensive gun at time of production and also because they were handmade at a time when time saving shortcuts really weren't involved in making anything remotely as complex.

I'm currently trying to track down more recent information - namely accounts of the Cookson gun in action; they were the most recent manufacturers of Lorenzoni pattern firearms.

[Godogma]

The Walch Navy revolver, indeed he did write about it and it was a 12 shot .36 caliber firearm. I've never seen one for sale or any immense amount of information on the topic - there were only about 1100 or so of them ever made as far as I can recall, and several sources say there were less of them.

[Godogma]

Here is the text of the ad placed in the Boston Gazette in which Cookson advertised his firearms:

Advertising in the Boston Gazette of April 12
"Breech-Loading Gun. Made by John Cookson, and to be sold by him at his House in Boston: a handy Gun of 9 Pound and a half Weight;
having a Place convenient to hold 9 Bullets, and Powder for 9 Charges and 9 Primings; the said Gun will fire 9 Times distinctly, as quick, or slow as you please, with one turn the Handle of said Gun, it doth charge the Gun with Powder and Bullet, and doth prime and shut the pan, and cock the Gun. All these Motions ae performed immediately at once, by one turn with the said Handle. Note, there is Nothing put into the Muzzle of the Gun as we charge other Guns."

As far as I know of Cookson's family patented the action in England and it was a near direct copy of the Lorenzoni design.

Here is an image of the Cookson gun, printed as part of the Gun Cards line, and you can distinctly see there is no under barrel mechanism for holding balls.

http://www.atlasphotocards.com/servl...--fdsh-/Detail

And here is a 12 shot repeater in the NRA museum, note this is a video although there is a gallery they also have a description of the action and whatnot.
http://www.nranews.com/videos/Treasu...8+Cookson.aspx

Judging by the NRA information as well as the ad he had placed in the Boston Gazette, which I will gladly take over an article that I can't read by someone who may or may not know very much about guns the system is charged with one rotation of the lever and then you can fire it. Thus its not a gravitic action by any means, and likely has a RoF much higher than 12 rounds in a minute. Assuming of course that the pistol/rifle they were talking about didn't have a 12 round magazine to start with and meant they had to reload the entire gun afterward.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Godogma

Judging by the NRA information as well as the ad he had placed in the Boston Gazette, which I will gladly take over an article that I can't read by someone who may or may not know very much about guns the system is charged with one rotation of the lever and then you can fire it. Thus its not a gravitic action by any means, and likely has a RoF much higher than 12 rounds in a minute.

I didn't see the guy work the action or disassemble the gun. What he says may be a bunch of generic repetition of things he was told by others who were repeating what they heard and so on.

I seriously doubt that the Lorenzoni I have the article about was rigorously test-fired. The article was published just after the pair of guns it was part of was sold by Sotheby's in 1972 for 60,000 pounds or 144,000 dollars at the then rate of exchange.

However, the article did have a full set of pictures of the disassembled gun and there can be no question of the gravity feed. There was simply no mechanism to force shot (and much less powder) into the breech at a very high speed.

Indeed in those guns (like this one) where powder is under the barrel and the shot in the butt (or vice-versa) You must hold the gun both in the barrel up and the barrel down position to load.

Gravity feed is also a feature of the Girandoni. You must hold the gun muzzle up for the musket balls to roll down into the movable breach. The true lever action was a development of the mid 1800s with the pump action coming even later.

I'm sorry if the Lorenzoni wasn't quite as "Oooh! Shiny!" as you seem to want it to be but it simply wasn't.

Even if you don't want to believe the horizontal transverse lock was that slow in moving powder and shot, the guns definitely did not cock themselves. That's another separate action. There's just no way you can get 30 shots per minute.

[Godogma]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Even if you don't want to believe the horizontal transverse lock was that slow in moving powder and shot, the guns definitely did not cock themselves. That's another separate action. There's just no way you can get 30 shots per minute.

You can debate that with the National Firearms museum where I got the information that it cocked itself. The Cookson gun on display there cocks itself and loads both powder and shot down into the barrel from the stock itself not under the barrel.

I'm trying to come up with a reasonable rate of fire, and have sent for more information on the mechanism from several other sources. Yes, its a gravity aided action, but I simply don't believe it would take four actions to load the rifle and fire again - according to both the museum and other information the mechanism cocks itself, and adds yet another layer of complexity to the firearm in question.

Frankly I was asking for help in setting the whole thing up, and I've about come to the conclusion that asking anyone on these forums for help coming up with stats on something that isn't in the books but DID in actuality exist is a waste of time; I posted all the information I could find without a bias as well as the tentative rate of fire that I was in no way certain on and you've tended to attack me about it - the information I could find suggested quite rapid fire especially for the era and anywhere from RoF 1/2 to 1/3 sounded reasonable, 1/4 sounds a bit off base to me simply because according to a museum director holding one in his hands it cocks itself as well as doing the rest of the operation of loading with one complete turn of a winding mechanism.

Also, I have no idea where you got the powder or the shot was under the barrel; in none of the pictures I have posted is any part of the mechanism under the barrel itself. The reloading mechanism is contained completely in the stock of the weapon in question.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Godogma

You can debate that with the National Firearms museum where I got the information that it cocked itself. The Cookson gun on display there cocks itself and loads both powder and shot down into the barrel from the stock itself not under the barrel.

Okay, I almost added that I couldn't speak for other guns. The Lorenzoni didn't cock itself.

Where I got that the Lorezoni had its' powder and shot in separate locations was from the disassembled pictures. It's very clear. I also read that other guns used a similar set-up. There were a lot of variations in these hand-made items over a century and a half.

There really can be no question about the gravity feed in my opinion. There is no powered assist mechanism in the pictures and internal diagrams. I can't imagine what sort of mechanism I would trust to force- feed blackpowder anyway.

From my perspective I am also trying to present what I know without bias and I am getting frustrated that you don't want to hear what I have to say. I will probably not continue this discussion if it goes on like this.

[Godogma]

In the picture of the Lorenzoni rifle it looks almost exactly like the Cookson Repeater rifle, so all I have to go on is that the Cookson which is a nearly complete copy of the Lorenzoni lock stock and distributor cap as some folks I know would say.

I don't know about the image you're looking at, I can't see it - you haven't offered to scan it and all I have to go by is research on the internet at the moment which is admittedly limited.

The images of the late model Lorenzoni 28 shot repeater looks to have the exact same cocking device or from what I can best educated guess is the cocking device that the Cookson repeater possesses.

My GM said RoF 1/2, I definitely don't mind the firearm firing faster but I was looking for more historical accuracy. Gravity definitely is part of the feed system (I have no problems with your assertion there), but as none of the models I've seen have an under barrel reservoir of powder or shot that removes one process of tilting; with everything contained in the stock.

My "better" estimate is 1/3, instead of 1/4 because according to the information I have been able to research at this point both the readying of powder and shot are in one rotation of the wheel action, and this also sealed the breech - whether or not it also cocked the weapon would depend on whether or not it had the cocking mechanism the Cookson rifle and the later 17th century Lorenzoni rifle I linked seem to possess.

If it possessed ALL of the Cookson features (which is in no means certain and likely would ensure additional costs on the firearm) it would seem it does indeed possess a 1/2 firing rate as my GM guessed from the data I presented him with (the same data I presented everyone else with) as three of the actions you present as ready actions are already accomplished by the mechanism according to the research.

As for the reason I felt you were being combative, you simply resorted to attacking me instead of addressing the data I presented and the research I put into it which was making me angry; its quite difficult to find any information about the weapons in question and I've spent hours doing so at this point - I apologize but it seems we've been having some miscommunication here.

Another point of contention you seemed to have is that you thought the bullet feed mechanism was like that of the Girandoni air rifle, out of curiosity did you even look at any of the links I posted or were you relying entirely on your own article for information? Is the link even working for anyone else besides me?

I haven't been able to find any pictures of the Lorenzoni action that actually have an underbarrel reservoir for either powder or ball - it seems there is actually a plate that blows open should the powder ignite on the ones I've been able to locate that vents the flames and gas away from the face on the right hand side of the rifle (on the images I linked of the 28 shot rifle).

Again, I apologize for the miscommunication perhaps we can continue this discussion without frustration and hurt feelings involved or anger due to the idea that one of us is ignoring the other? It seems that you were basing your findings on information I didn't have and that didn't match the research I was locating (admittedly most of the information I found on the action itself came from the last made model of the lorenzoni action - the Cookson and from examining it and the 28 shot lorenzoni closely to find them near matches from everything I could see).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Godogma

Again, I apologize for the miscommunication perhaps we can continue this discussion without frustration

Right, I apologize as well of course.

The link I posted earlier was to a page that had several images from the article that had been scanned in by somebody there.

This is a simple 2-sided view of the exterior action. Not really that helpful IMHO but I'm trying to be complete.

http://swordforum.com/forums/attachm...6&d=1120057462

This one is of the horizontal transverse component itself. Note the separate wells for powder and shot. This is why I believe that these make up separate steps in a process. The appropriate wells would have to be lined up with their respective magazines and I do not believe both could be filled at the same time. Both would definitely have to empty into the breech separately.

http://swordforum.com/forums/attachm...7&d=1120057522

I am somewhat doubtful that I could scan in more images myself. It's a procedure I'm not familiar with (though I could lay my hands upon a scanner). It'd be a significant project in any event and not something I can undertake immediately.

I have looked at every link you've posted but I have not judged many of them to be really satisfactory sources.

[Godogma]

I think I missed your link, when reading through the messages? The only one I saw was of the Ferguson rifle as well as Girandoni links IIRC. I'll search back through them and check out the forum post you mentioned; there's no real need to go out and scan the remaining sections of the article.

I'm certain there are GURPS perks that can reduce the amount of actions/time needed to reload a Flintlock in any case. Which I'm sure could be adapted to the lorenzoni or kalthoff or even the ferguson rifle should such need to be done.

Hmmm, perhaps its a two stage lever - the first part of the rotation depositing the ball and then the second continuing the process and placing the powder before finally closing the breech. (At some point during this it also primes the mizzen pan) and then depending on the technology involved either cocks the rifle or doesn't but that still puts us at 1/3 instead of 1/4 I think?

I found the link to the Lorenzoni thing and saw the brief message and the two images the man posted. I'll look for a copy of the book itself, perhaps Abe books has another copy at hand.

Having found the mere two pictures the man posted you can't tell either way whether or not that example of the Lorenzoni rifle has the cocking mechanism (or what I THINK is the cocking mechanism) or how exactly the rifle operated other than by revolving the crank, or even that it had an underbarrel ball or powder reservoir. It seems to mostly show the exterior of the action and that one piece of the mechanism.

The main stickler would be the price as I'm certain additions like the cocking mechanism is likely just another price modifier. I'm hoping some of the other sources I mentioned will be able to point me to - at least for the Cookson variant, which would be the easiest to acquire information on. We can extrapolate from there to GURPS dollars with a relatively simple conversion rate using the online currency valuator doohickey for 2004 which the rest of the GURPS prices are based on.

[Kalzazz]

Im the apocryphal DM in question

My thoughts were 'a single action revolver or bolt action rifle is RoF 1 . . . this seems somewhat more complex what with the dipping needed, so RoF 1/2'

I could certainly buy 1/3

I am somewhat suspect on price, I figure such things must have cost in the thousands of dollars or I would have heard of them before now because they would have been much more common (I mean, who would want a random normal musket when you can have one of these nifty things?)