Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics??

[apoc527]

Ok, so my game night got canceled for what was going to be a beer & pretzels evening of DF. With the extra time, I simulated a quick duel between the Knight PC and the Orc Sergeant I am using from DFA1. The Knight was built on 150 points according to the DF on the Cheap.

Thus, the Orc and the Knight had weapon and shield skills of 14 each. How do two equally skilled combatants move a fight along?

With a Block of 11 and the 2 DB from their medium shields, both combatants had Active Defenses of 13 with the Block, about 13 with Parry (though the Orcs Unbalanced Axe would make that less useful) and fairly poor Dodges (due to encumbrance, though this affected the Knight more than the Orc). Getting through that level of defense is tough, I discovered, particularly when both fighters have equal skill making Feint not particularly effective.

AOA: Determined plus Deceptive Attack can work, but you leave yourself open to a potentially deadly counterattack. Committed Attack (Determined) is helpful for this, but the bonus translates to only a -1 on the enemy Active Defense.

Is this where running around behind someone is a good idea? How do I stop that? Does the faster person take the Wait maneuver? When do I use Stop Hits?

So, rather than "tactics" in the usual sense, I mean: how do I use the GURPS game mechanics to adjudicate standard DF melee combat without it taking FOREVER because everyone just Blocks or Parries every attack?

Thanks!

Edit: By way of explanation, this doesn't come up much in my current GURPS game, which is a TL7-9 Fallout/X-com hybrid. The utility of Block versus laser rifles and PDWs is nonexistent and thus everyone has to Dodge. Plus, with guns, you have to AOA (Determined) a lot more to use the sights and actually hit anything (thank you Tactical Shooting!). So, while there is a melee oriented PC, he tends to fight others who don't have shields and the melee training prevalent in fantasy or DF games.

[D10]

I dont think it does, but if players coordinate they can take down one enemy easily, and who doest like long duels between even opponents

[lexington]

Failing all else: Pick a number, subtract it from both of their skill levels and recalculate.

Better solution: show them Deceptive Attack since it really is a fundamental part of the system and happens to solve this particular situation -and/or- get them to use tactics and toss bonuses and penalties at them on the fly based on those decisions

[Smudd]

My friends and I still make it that the defender has to defend by more than what the attack made their roll by. It's a good way to get through cannon fodder and if in your case you could make it that if the attack roll was a good amount higher they do extra damage for doing such an impressive attack.

[Anthony]

Absent other factors that can speed up a fight, two people using one-handed weapon plus shield, with combat reflexes, can bash on one another for quite a while; deceptive attack 1 (12- to hit, 12- to defend) is about the best hit chance, at roughly 20%. That's not really a big deal, though; it's a situation that doesn't come up very often in parties (due to focus fire, on one side or the other), it's deliberately defensive builds on both sides, and if all else fails, standing there hammering on one another doesn't really take that long to play out, since you don't particularly have to think about what you're doing.

[Maz]

I've run a combat-arena game where opponents where pretty even almost all the time. IMO this is where the game becomes really interesting and you really have to know the rules well to win. This is where player-skill can win over die-rolling.

The most important thin is "Do you allow Extra Effort in combat" ? If you do, and I assume you do because your playing DF, then there are a wide range of different options open to you. Some are more risky than others. Some expose weaknesses in the GURPS system that might require a little houseruling to fix.


But generally in an even match, the most important manoeuvre becomes Evaluate. It gives a nice bonus to hit which can increase your Deceptive Attack bonus, and at the same time it reduce the penalty you suffer if an enemy makes a deceptive attack. It's actually so powerful that once one start to Evaluate, the other is almost forced to do the same, and then it usually becomes the one who attack FIRST that loses as he will waste his Evaluate bonus once he attack and it's not going to help him hit the other as any Deceptive bonus is going to be soaked by the others evaluate and then once he have missed. The other can attack him back with full evalaute bonus and a high Deceptive penalty.


Another very important tactic, although it requires EE is allowed, is Giant Step and to a lesser degree Heroic Charge.
If you stand at the normal Reach 1 adjacent to each other. You can make a Giant Step to move to his side and attack him. This only cost 1 FP and gives the other a -2 penalty to defense AND if he have a shield, you can move to his other side and disallow his DB bonus and any chance of blocking leaving him with only his parry and dodge. (This move can also be achieved without Giant Step by making a Sidestep on a defense).

Heroic Charge does have it's uses but is generally way too risky as you can't retreat and can't parry (unless you spend 1 FP on Rapid Recovery). Comitted attack is een worse as you can't retreat, or parry AND gives a -2 penalty. And all out attack is simply suicide. Because the enemy will retaliate with a Telegraphic AoA and that's usually enough to send a sword through your eyesocket or chop off your arm.

---

In the end I find these kinds of combats involve a lot of positioning, trying to get into a position to make a side-attack and alot of turns spend Evaluating. and when EE is allowed noones really going to get hit untill they start running out of FP.
In the end I find they give a very satisfying Hollywood realistic combat. Where equal combatants circle a lot, making carefull jabs, maybe once in a while taking a chance to try and end the combat quickly but in the end they are both worn down and its the one "lucky blow" (critical hit/miss) that determine the fight (and this is why Luck is a must-have for action heroes).

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by Maz

But generally in an even match, the most important manoeuvre becomes Evaluate. It gives a nice bonus to hit which can increase your Deceptive Attack bonus, and at the same time it reduce the penalty you suffer if an enemy makes a deceptive attack.

I can't find this rule, is it from Martial Arts?

Edit: In the case of equally skilled opponents, Damage to Shields (p. B484) may change a bit. But Deceptive Attacks and using environment has more impact on the outcome of fight.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Gnomasz

I can't find this rule, is it from Martial Arts?

Yup, it's on page 100.

[Ulzgoroth]

So, you've got two highly-defensive characters here with no offensive tricks. Lets see...

Uh. For starters, how did you calculate those active defenses? By my eye each has block and parry at 14/2+3=10. Did you roll a Retreat into that? With such high defenses, either of them (but especially the knight) could try refusing to give ground and pushing the other into a bad position.

If you use Damage to Shields and realistic shields, they could just batter each others' shields apart. But that wouldn't be the recommended DF way.

Of course, neither are duels. A few extra participants could break things wide open quickly.

AoAs are pretty dumb. Yeah, you can get something like a 37% chance of delivering a hit, but if that hit isn't a fight-ender, or if it doesn't go home, your opponent's All Out (Strong) Telegraphic attack or All Out (Determined) Telegraphic stab to the eye or what not is probably going to end you.

Runarounds have potential, though. The important thing for a runaround isn't the runaround itself. It's getting onto the opponent's weapon side, so their shield DB doesn't apply. Committed Attacks are dangerous, but they do provide the chance to pose a greater threat without outright suiciding.

Either fighter could attempt a Dual Weapon Attack. For the Orc, this isn't all that useful...it's maybe a little more likely to get something through than the regular attack but the Knight has two good defenses. However, for the Knight this is a more potent option. The Orc only has one solid active defense on a turn where it attacked and if the Knight lucks into a double hit it'll do some good while still offering the target the chance to roll badly each turn. Only useful if the shield damage is enough to pierce armor. A Rapid Strike would also be an option but without Weapon Master, not an attractive one at this skill level.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

For starters, how did you calculate those active defenses? By my eye each has block and parry at 14/2+3=10.

The orc sergeant from MotFD has Combat Reflexes for +1, and he's got a medium shield for another +2, so some defenses at 13 are correct there. Presumably the knight has something similar going on.