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Old 06-03-2019, 06:58 AM   #811
robertsconley
 
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Even GURPS Lite isn't newbie friendly. The issue is the way point based building works in GURPS.

Let's compare to another, later, breakout that was, for over a decade, stomping GURPS in the race for customers... World of Darkness
GURPS Spaceships for 4e and GURPS Traveller for 3e takes their respective highly detailed GURPS Vehicle (one published, one not as of yet) and distills it into a modular system where elements just snap together.

My view is there is no reason why that approach can't be done for character creation. It would still be GURPS with all the mechanics drawn from the core rulebooks but presented in a far more approach format.

The GURPS issue compared to other RPGs has always been one of presentation.

The caveats being that there not going to be a single magic bullet so multiple attempts are needed preferably done through a 3P program to minimize the impact on SJ Games time. Let the fanbase do the R&D on this one.
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Old 06-03-2019, 08:20 AM   #812
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

It sounds to me like you guys just want GURPS to be something other than GURPS. Spaceships isn't just a simplified presentation of Vehicles; it's a whole different system.

I keep writing responses to this topic and deleting them before I'm finished, because I can't find a way to say what I want here. So understand that what I say now is incomplete and not worded perfectly.

In recent years there has been a strong emphasis on GURPS as toolkit rather than GURPS as game. People seem more interested in modifying GURPS to replicate pre-existing things rather than to just play GURPS in its generic form in any genre.

Dungeon Fantasy is basically an attempt to replicate the D&D 3rd Edition experience. There are a gazillion magic systems because everyone wants magic to work a certain way based on something specific. Prime Directive seems to be all about getting people to argue Technology Levels.[/i]

GURPS is much simpler when people stop fighting the system to turn it into these things. When you take the Basic Set plus Fantasy, you can create a good fantasy setting that isn't based on anything else, and nobody has to worry about the system not supporting an exact vision. You can take the Basic Set and Space and start making planets to adventure on without worry about how to model what a "strong stun setting" on a phaser means or what the formula for the speed of your warp drive is.

GURPS can still be intimidating, but GURPS has always been intimidating. That's not going to change no matter how you present it. But it's a heck of a lot less intimidating when you're a newbie who can just choose traits for your character out of the Basic Set, rather than have to comb through not only that but half a dozen supplements and your GM's notes on changes made to the system.

The above is all one thought. No doubt someone is going to pick out a line and criticize just that, but that will miss the point. Even though GURPS can be a toolkit to create the perfect replica of something else, its strength, and its original conception I think, is to be its own thing in all the various, non-specific genres. When it does this, it's a lot simpler for newbies to get into, because there's no pressure to conform to a preconceived idea.
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Old 06-03-2019, 12:58 PM   #813
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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It sounds to me like you guys just want GURPS to be something other than GURPS. Spaceships isn't just a simplified presentation of Vehicles; it's a whole different system.
All the components in Spaceships and Traveller were built from GURPS Vehicle rules. In the case of Spaceship, the unreleased GURPS Vehicle 4e rules. However there are break downs of GURPS Traveller's components.

I picked this one specific things because it illustrates my point about the same rules different presentation. If you take a starship built GURP Travellers, broke down all the component and presented that then you will have a GURPS Vehicle stat block and build. However the modular system was easier for people to use.


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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
The above is all one thought. No doubt someone is going to pick out a line and criticize just that, but that will miss the point. Even though GURPS can be a toolkit to create the perfect replica of something else, its strength, and its original conception I think, is to be its own thing in all the various, non-specific genres. When it does this, it's a lot simpler for newbies to get into, because there's no pressure to conform to a preconceived idea.
Back when this debate cropped up, my recommendation was to keep GURPS as GURPS but add in all the stuff covered by competitors. Mainly this meant a monster manual and cutting anything that wasn't germane to the broad genre.

The point of any approach is twofold
1) A path for a newcomer to master the system
2) A mode for those who know the system but don't have the time to use it as a toolkit.

Presenting a version that accommodates the above will reduce the work needed to run a GURPS Campaign and thus broaden the number of players who will find GURPS useful.

But what about Dungeon Fantasy RPG

The DF RPG covered the Table of Content. But the problem is by going with 250 pt template in pursuit of a focus D&D style Dungeon Delving meant that the list of items for characters became too long to appeal to #1 and #2 above. Thus suffered in comparison to rival fantasy RPGs.

And it lost the unique feel that GURPS had for heroic level fantasy campaigns (120 to 150 pts)

But it doesn't matter

But what I said, what you said doesn't matter. The real problem is that now with GURPS there isn't going to be any one approach that will work. GURPS products and core rule books needs to be diversified. We need to try just about every approach mentioned in this and other threads. Do it in a way that doesn't burden SJ Games with extra labor or capital cost than what they are doing now.

If the OSR only ever had OSRIC (AD&D) or Basic Fantasy (B/X) then it would have never revived classic D&D publishing or gaming in the way it did. As important as those two RPG were to its development, their presentation was too narrow to ignite the classic D&D hobby.

It was only when the number of other retro-clones exploded along with support products that the OSR got enough traction to re-ignite classic D&D.

If you look at Traveller right now, you will see a different but similar process in play with Cepheus, Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition, and Traveller 5e. Because of the diversity of core books, Traveller has been attracting a lot more fans in recent years. Enough that there is now a wealth of Traveller works for people to enjoy.

Then there is Runequest/Mythras, Savage Worlds, Fate, etc. While none of them are no where near knocking off any of the top 5 RPGs, they all enjoy a healthy release schedule and a wide range of products. Along with different options to handle RPG IP.

Last edited by robertsconley; 06-03-2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:07 AM   #814
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
All the components in Spaceships and Traveller were built from GURPS Vehicle rules. In the case of Spaceship, the unreleased GURPS Vehicle 4e rules. However there are break downs of GURPS Traveller's components.

I picked this one specific things because it illustrates my point about the same rules different presentation. If you take a starship built GURP Travellers, broke down all the component and presented that then you will have a GURPS Vehicle stat block and build. However the modular system was easier for people to use.
THe same kind of situation exists in other game lines as well, and the end results, while ratings compatible, are NOT comparable.

In both GT and in Traveller T4 (SSDS is the name of the simplified system; a further simplification, QSDS, also happened, but it's a whole additional bucket of worms above and beyond this factor), the design sequence in the core was built out of a more robust but massively more detailed design book (G:V and FF&S, respectively).

Designs using GT or SSDS are non-optimized when compared to same ratings targeted in design in the parent system.

Characters built using templates in GURPS are often quite different from what a player would build for the concept.

Fundamentally, the design systems show the opposite of your claim... a campaign using both is putting the simpler system consistently at disadvantage.

In GT, template based characters are inherently less skilled at the key competencies than would be open points builds, but generally, are more broadly passably competent. And much faster and easier to pull together... but due to the way they are built, they still require an understanding of the point system.
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Old 06-04-2019, 03:12 PM   #815
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Designs using GT or SSDS are non-optimized when compared to same ratings targeted in design in the parent system.
This is true, but for GT, for example, I would never build a starship using G:V, so there is no actual efficiency issue for me.

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Characters built using templates in GURPS are often quite different from what a player would build for the concept.
This is not necessarily a bad thing.

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In GT, template based characters are inherently less skilled at the key competencies than would be open points builds, but generally, are more broadly passably competent.
For small groups of players (3-4), which I frequently have, it is far easier to run adventures for broadly competent characters than specialists.
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Old 06-04-2019, 03:25 PM   #816
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

Part of the problem is that GURPS, aspiring to be generic, doesn't have a set "core activity" that the PCs all ought be competent at, and need fine grain distinctions in skills to distinguish themselves.

Some runs are combat heavy, so it makes sense to have fine grained distinctions between the big gun tank, the martial artist, and the silent stiletto assassin. In those games, talking to people may be less common, so one might only need a couple of broadly defined social or deductive skills at competent levels for the rare times you'll use them.

Some runs are social heavy, so fine grained distinctions between the schmoozer, the intimidator, and the everybody's pal that folks just confide in, are important. For, say GURPS Political Intrigue, one might not need any combat skills.

Take a look at how Pelgrane has tweaked GUMSHOE for Bubblegumshoe, Nights Black Agents, and say Timewatch. Same core mechanics, vastly different skill and add-on rules sets.

Breaking this down -- how to fine tune GURPS for different play/campaign styles might be worth a discussion on the GURPS list.
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:11 PM   #817
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by L.J.Steele View Post
Part of the problem is that GURPS, aspiring to be generic, doesn't have a set "core activity" that the PCs all ought be competent at, and need fine grain distinctions in skills to distinguish themselves.
One thing I've thought about is making skills variable granularity. For example, you might have 20-30 broad skills costing [4], each split into 3+ concentrations costing [2], and each of those split into 3+ specializations costing [1]. Thus, if you don't care about the details, you aren't going to be horrible if you decide to just not use concentrations and specializations (names can change obviously, I think I stole those from shadowrun).
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Old 06-04-2019, 07:30 PM   #818
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
a modular system where elements just snap together.

My view is there is no reason why that approach can't be done for character creation.
It was; they're called templates and lenses.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:02 AM   #819
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
My view is there is no reason why that approach can't be done for character creation. It would still be GURPS with all the mechanics drawn from the core rulebooks but presented in a far more approach format.
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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
It was; they're called templates and lenses.
"Pointless Slaying and Looting" and "Pointless Monster Hunting" do that to an even greater extent, but they are buried in Pyramid articles that no one new to GURPS would ever see.

An interesting experiment would be a small, standalone game that was based mostly on GURPS Lite customized to a particular genre, that used a version of the "Pointless" character generation system. It would be a fairly rules-lite game, with quick, modular character creation, but play would still be GURPS at its core.
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:49 AM   #820
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
"Pointless Slaying and Looting" and "Pointless Monster Hunting" do that to an even greater extent, but they are buried in Pyramid articles that no one new to GURPS would ever see.

An interesting experiment would be a small, standalone game that was based mostly on GURPS Lite customized to a particular genre, that used a version of the "Pointless" character generation system. It would be a fairly rules-lite game, with quick, modular character creation, but play would still be GURPS at its core.
If you take that to the extreme, you get something like GURPS Ultra Lite. I think there is room for something in between the two, though.
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